D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Hussar]

I mean I assume you will have something. Even superman and invincible have like a paper thin vainer of an explanation...

"I extend my aura and it lifts me"
"I think my happy thought and can fly"
"I am so strong I leap into the air and stay there, and have control of my muscles to manuver"
"I grow wings"
"I throw myself"

Samurai Jack - no. Jump high!

 

[TheSword]

Lots of responses to my last point. Not going to reply individually.

The fact that some casters benefit in some ways doesn’t change the fact that casters cast spells by definition. When they’re doing that they aren’t benefiting from the magic items (and if they aren’t doing that then what’s the point of being a caster)

Sure a cleric can benefit from better armour. But not to as great an extant as the fighter because the fighter will always be in the front ranks fighting whereas the cleric sometimes won’t they’ll Be healing or buffing.

Sure the bladesinger can benefit from a magic sword, but everytime they cast a spell they aren’t.

Fighters benefit more. Because they get more use from these things.

Magic items aren’t optional in most games, neither are feats. Claiming its so is fighting against reality. If you’re playing D&D without these things well don’t complain martials are useless when the solution is right in front of you and already in play with most groups.

Fighters get plenty of fun stuff at levels. Feats are awesome. Also extremely flexible and allow you to customize your character to an extent other classes can’t. Also a feature.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The game went so hard pretending it was playable without magic items that we practically had to pull out fingernails to get a pathetically bad price guide. It shook the boards when the playtest offered a free feat at level 1. Not acknowledging that is the real 'fighting against reality' if we're going to stoop to gaslighting by the classical definition.

And Fun stuff with levels. Yep, like 'I attack slightly more often', 'I heal a sad, tiny bit' and if we go to subclasses, 'I can emulate spells', 'I can do what I fighter should maybe once per encounter because of stupid 5MWD limits', and my personal favorite 'I get a stopgap for the lazy weapon design to actually get a crit range extension'.

 

[Hussar]

I'd be fine with that if that is true of ALL 9th level characters. Fighters, rogues, barbarians, wizards, clerics, etc. 9th level = fly. But that's not giving the fighter much new as much as just guaranteeing all combat in D&D after 9th level in 3D.

True, it does take to 14th level for barbarians to fly, but, they can do it. Rogues gain enough skill that while they can't fly, they can certainly climb anything, effectively gaining a half base speed climb speed. So, it's not like the other classes never actually gain new options.

 

[Hussar]

No fly: jump good.

ROTF - ninja'd is just far too ironic.

 

[Hussar]

Lots of responses to my last point. Not going to reply individually.

The fact that some casters benefit in some ways doesn’t change the fact that casters cast spells by definition. When they’re doing that they aren’t benefiting from the magic items (and if they aren’t doing that then what’s the point of being a caster)

Sure a cleric can benefit from better armour. But not to as great an extant as the fighter because the fighter will always be in the front ranks fighting whereas the cleric sometimes won’t they’ll Be healing or buffing.

Why is a cleric not in the front lines? They have good armor and HP. Front line is exactly where they should be. And, note, you can cast and attack as well - Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians, etc.

Sure the bladesinger can benefit from a magic sword, but everytime they cast a spell they aren’t.

Nope. There are bonus action spells.

Fighters benefit more. Because they get more use from these things.

Magic items aren’t optional in most games, neither are feats. Claiming its so is fighting against reality. If you’re playing D&D without these things well don’t complain martials are useless when the solution is right in front of you and already in play with most groups.

Fighters get plenty of fun stuff at levels. Feats are awesome. Also extremely flexible and allow you to customize your character to an extent other classes can’t. Also a feature.

Fighters gain what, 2 more feats over 20 levels than other characters? Whoopee. Sure, magic items are pretty much expected. I get that. I agree. But, the idea that fighters are gaining more traction from magic items than casters is ludicrous. And the fact that a fighter without a magic weapon is nerfed down to the level of a wizard in an anti-magic shell is a problem.

What's the DPR of a fighter without a magic weapon fighting a wererat? It's not like this is an effect that needs a 16th level caster to create. This is a pretty common CR 2 monster. And your fighter can't actually do anything to it. Every caster can hurt that wererat. Every... single... one. Your fighter gets to take damage for the encounter. Congratulations.

 

[Minigiant]

One thing I loved about the Dresden Files Fate RPG is that it clearly expresses the "level of levels" a character has. A character can have
Normal, Inhuman, Super, or Mythic levels of Strength/Speed/Recovery/Toughness as well as Magic, Monster abilities, and bonded magic items.

You could make a fighter who had Inhuman Strength and Recovery because they are a dwarf paragon. Or you could be a pure normal "mortal".

The thing is your pure mortal if the games was into big power is a skill monkey. You cant fight demon princes and fey royals upfront. You had to use skills or break purity to get magic items or magic. Because that's how most fantasy and myth moves, at high power you go skills or supernatural. Or shoot them. Because the fiction made a point that one cold use firearms to make up for being lesser than minor supernaturals.

And that the different. D&D wants high level D&D to exist. It doesn't want to have to think about mid-high levels and make decisions about it.

 

[Eubani]

Arguments like Fighters can improvise, can get magic items or feats and other such BS read to me as "I want Fighters to suck and I know that I have no good reason".

 

[Hussar]

Arguments like Fighters can improvise, can get magic items or feats and other such BS read to me as "I want Fighters to suck and I know that I have no good reason".

That's a bit extreme.

Fighters don't "suck". They really don't. And it does behoove everyone to start from the position that fighters as written, do work most of the time. Again, since most campaigns tend to wrap up in single digit levels, a lot of games never really see the problem. At single digit levels, fighters don't really fall behind too much. And any falling behind that does happen tends to get glossed over by the party simply either not doing X or doing something to help the fighter up. So, the fighter gets those boots of flying by default, that sort of thing. The fighter is always the first in line for any buffing spells. Every magic weapon goes to the fighter first and the DM always makes sure that there's a magic weapon to be found. Heck, this was built right into the earlier editions because something like a quarter of all magic items (and you did get rather a lot of them) were magic weapons.

And in the single digit levels, the disparity isn't all that noticeable because the casters are still using their lower level slots on stuff that doesn't overshadow other characters.

It's mostly in the double digits where it becomes a more pronounced problem. The baddies just have so many ways to shut the fighter down - either by having different movement types, or the fact that adventures at higher levels stop being in mundane locations as well. That fighter is pretty pooched when it comes to any adventure that occurs underwater. You want to do Spelljammer? You MUST have a caster. Your 20th level fighter can never fly a Spelljammer ship. The adventures themselves change in nature and that change really highlights the disparities between casters and non-casters.

And then at high levels, the casters don't have to use their lower level slots on combat anymore and have slots to spare. Suddenly all those sort of niche spells that are so powerful, but, so limited in use, start getting pulled out. 6th level casters probably aren't using Locate Object spells, for example. They just don't have enough slots. But a 16th level caster? They've got tons of slots to spare. Detect Thoughts is a minor cost and a huge effect. On and on.

And that's where the problem really lies. Your fighter will NEVER be as good as my wizard at interrogation. Doesn't matter that you've got Batman levels of skills in Insight, my Detect Thoughts spell will always be better.

 

[Yaarel]

Yeah, let's wind this down before someone mentions Record of Lodoss War...oops.

Heh, I am finally watching − and binge watching − Lodoss! Just finished season 1 episode 4.