D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Swing and a miss for me. No narrative, no super powers. Why should mythic martials be exempt from that?

I think it should be like the sorcerer: you have an innate ability, but your subclass defines the origin. Maybe you have draconic powers, psionics, or astral swordplay or you have the blessing (or bloodline) or a deity. Nobody plays a sorcerer or a warlock and when it comes time to pick their power source chooses "IDK". I see this as no different.

Sure, how about you have the bloodline of the First Men, which were like Gods walking among us and reportedly could do any manner of fantastic feats. This manifests itself in various abilities that no mere mundane member of your race could ever hope to do.

But I'd probably be fine with a Sorcerer type subclass pick as well. It really isn't that limiting given the spell lists are the same and very broad no matter your pick.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I find this extremely unlikely to say the least. What evidence do you have that WotC even acknowledges your concerns as a problem, let alone one they're willing to re-design the game to address? They are bending over backwards to make OneD&D backwards compatible with a game that has all the problems you describe, to the point where they're not even willing to officially replace the 2014 PH with what they consider better design work, and are instead allowing people to choose. You cannot turn to WotC for help here.

Ah yes, attempting to get a corporation to change their policies and plans is known to be an utterly impossible task. No one should ever even attempt it, because they will never change. Don't waste your time and energy attempting, just except the inevitability that your voice shall never be heard, and the things you desire shall never come to be.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I just want to make sure people don't forget that just because you're concerned about high level abilities doesn't mean you can ignore low levels in a 20 level class. What differentiates a 1st level mythic martial from a 1st level fighter? How do the subclasses work? What low level class features are going to be built upon at higher levels, like how every other class works? The reason you want the class is only part of what you need to make the class.

Sure, it's not a trivial design task to make this class. Which is probably why a good 3rd party one hasn't appeared.

 

[Incenjucar]

When they wanted supernatural abilities.

So fighters draw on the mystical power of the Soul. Interesting. Might be able to work with that. Not that far removed from psionics OR ki, but iit'ssomething better than "don't ask, don't tell"

More using the original idea of psionics and the stuff that inspired it: There is a real world notion that humans are capable of doing crazy weird stuff naturally, but we have placed restrictions on ourselves through a sort of mass delusion. Since the true nature of the soul in D&D is mysterious, but is know to naturally warp reality (otherwise antimagic would unsoul everyone!), it's the likely culprit in both the limitations and overcoming them.

 

[Incenjucar]

DC 15 all the time, don’t need a new class to do that. Just need a DM and a players that want to see it.
I know the answer, what I gonna do if the DM don’t want it!?
First be a DM allowing such features and your friends gonna see that it can be cool.

A DM can also give you a My Little Tarrasque but that doesn't solve the problem for everyone else.

 

[Remathilis]

At level 1 they can chuck the halfling across the ravine, at level 3 the dwarf, at level 5 the goliath, at level 10 the horse, at level 15 the ogre, at level 20 the giant.

And after that is gated to the Mythic Warrior; that means the barbarian won't be able to unless its stepping on the new classes toes?

 

[Krachek]

A DM can also give you a My Little Tarrasque but that doesn't solve the problem for everyone else.

It will solve my problem, but not yours!
In this problem, you don’t have to convince me,
you have to convince your DM.

 

[Incenjucar]

And after that is gated to the Mythic Warrior; that means the barbarian won't be able to unless its stepping on the new classes toes?

The wizard can hit someone with a dagger thus a fighter cannot.

 

[Clint_L]

What happens during those more rounds? More attacks are made. What happens when more attacks are made? More hp is lost.

People tend to forget that fighters and martials DON'T have infinite Hit Points. A 20th level martial tends to have 165 hp (except barbarian). This is one of those things people forget about it seems. An orog deals 10 damage per hit. Let's say you have your fighter with their longsword, making 4 attacks for 4d8+28 or 46 damage. That kills one of them a round, so let's say you fight 10 of them. 10 CR 2's versus one level 20.

They get 18 attacks the first round, 16 the second, 14 the third, 12, 10, 8, 6, 4, 2 for a total of 90 attacks. They have a +6, so let's say you have some fancy +2 plate and have an AC of 22. That means they have a 25% hit rate. 90/4 = 22.5 attacks that will hit for.... 220 damage.

Dead fighter.

How are the orogs all able to get their attacks on the fighter in those early rounds? Did the fighter use their action surges or second wind? And what sub-class is the fighter? Didn't take toughness? Why only 165 HP - since they are a tanky fighter (plate and shield) you'd think they'd have at least gotten their constitution to 18. But okay, we'll make it only con 16 for some reason, which, using fixed HP, gives them 184 HP. Honestly, this fighter is making some bad choices, but whatever; I guess the exercise is to see how well a poorly planned fighter does.

Okay, just to give the benefit of the doubt, let's assume the orogs surround the fighter - so this is a worst case scenario where the fighter has done zero tactics. Also, we'll make the fighter a champion, the most vanilla of the sub-classes. So the AC will be 23, since they would obviously take defense to go with dueling.

Round 1: Fighter action surges and kills two in the first round, which is fine because only eight could have attacked them anyway. Those 8 do 16 attacks, hitting 20% of the time against AC 23, so that's 32 damage. Fighter is at 152 HP.

Round 2: Fighter action surges again to kill two more and then pops second wind, healing 26, so is at 178 HP. Orogs do 24. Fighter is at 154 HP.

Round 3: Fighter kills one more leaving 5. Orogs do 20. 134.

Round 4: Four Orogs, left, to do 16 damage. Fighter is at 118.

Round 3: Three Orogs, 12 damage. Fighter 106 HP.

Round 4: Two Orogs, who really should be running away. 8 Damage. Fighter 98 HP.

Round 5: Last Orog. Fighter 94 HP.

Round 6: no more Orogs. They managed to get the fighter down to about 50% health. Honestly, though if they ever managed to get the fighter below half health the fighter would have been healing 8 HP/round, even with their pitiful constitution. And if the fighter was able to get any kind of cover, such as fighting from a doorway, they could basically tank infinite orogs.

So the only way those orogs are taking down a level 20 champion is basically if there is an army of them and the fighter is completely surrounded with no where to go. Even then it will take them awhile and a lot of dead Orogs.

Which seems about right, frankly.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Can it be defined and vague? Mythic bloodline.

You can even take it a step further. How does a bloodline become mythical? How does "The Blood of Kings" gain power?

One explanation I have seen in fantasy works is that the person achieving these feats becomes something of a living legend. We even have an example of this in the Glory Paladin, the idea that your legend fuels you, you gain a mystical weight and power because the power of belief and words, of thousands of people and hundreds of bard's songs have lent you a strength.

We know words have power in DnD, because Bard's exist. We know faith has power because of how the Gods are described, we even have gods who have explicitly risen to power because they were local heroes and the faith of the people they saved thrust them into godhood.

And as for "why don't casters get this power"... they do. How else do you explain that the descendant of a famous wizard becomes a powerful sorcerer? How else do you explain that a wizard who mere weeks ago could only cast mildly impressive spells now has the might to take on Demon Lords? They simply channel this power of legends in a different way. Clerics and Paladins? Portions of their might come and go from their gods or their patrons. They are leaning on the power of those beings to empower themselves.