D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

There is no such thing as a gymnast with Dex 16 and Str 10.

Look at reallife gymnasts. They are extremely muscular.

Strength is agile.

There is no such thing as a real life gymnast with a strength of 16. That is strong enough to wrestle a gorilla or a grizzly bear.

There is likely no such thing as a real life gymnast with a strength of 14. That is strong enough to wrestle a boar, and gymnasts are strong, but also lithe. They likely do not have the muscle mass and strength to wrestle a boar to the ground.

So, at the highest, you might find real life gymnasts with a strength of 12. Because, again, we tend to forget what these numbers actually mean when we translate them between the game and the real world. A 16 is average for the game, but in the real world it begins representing literally inhuman amounts of strength.

In actuality, it would be more likely to say there are no such things as gymnasts with a 16 dex, but we have a harder time defining dexterity on a scale of real life.

 

[nevin]

I

Thats getting too far into the weeds trying to simulate biology in a way that doesn't add anything to the game.

You are right that lifting should be skill driven, but theres no reason to separate it from your general moving, jumping, swimming etc stuff. (Hence why I like Conditioning as a replacement. Lifting fits right in with that)

or just have lifting as a skill that increases the amount you can lift and add modifiers to success. Then anyone can lift but only with the lifting skill can you lift 20 times what a normal person can.

 

[Yaarel]

Thats getting too far into the weeds trying to simulate biology in a way that doesn't add anything to the game.

You are right that lifting should be skill driven, but theres no reason to separate it from your general moving, jumping, swimming etc stuff. (Hence why I like Conditioning as a replacement. Lifting fits right in with that)

Simple.

The Strength table for lifting, carrying, pushing, and encumbrance goes to a Weightlifting skill instead. The Strength (Weightlifting) Checks can benefit from a skill proficiency bonus.

 

[CreamCloud0]

i got three comments in about as many minutes, i thought my controversial post was going to be the alignment one but it was the one about acrobats that did it

 

[Incenjucar]

D&D stats correlate with archetypes rather than real abilities. It's a thread all its own, and has been an ongoing debate since the 70s.

 

[Emberashh]

Simple.

The Strength table for lifting, carrying, pushing, and encumbrance goes to a Weightlifting skill instead. The only difference is, the Strength (Weightlifting) Checks can benefit from a skill proficiency bonus.

You get the same benefit by using Athletics as the skill for it. The point was that trying to separate the two doesn't add anything to the game.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Some requirement I do have understand, and some questions.

A mythic warrior can’t use spells or fluff spells in any way to perform his mythic prowess.

Skills, expertise, reliable talent is reserved for expert classes especially The rogue.

We can have a pool of points and spent it on abilities. But the monk already do that with a lot of complaint. Still that would be my take to implement a mythic warrior.

Warrior already have the battlemaster and the maneuvers. More use per day, high level maneuvers, combine superiority dice at high level for increase effects? Make the maneuvers the core of all Mythic Warrior?

Then there are others rules.
The jumping, lifting, and many other physical skill rules. do we want a mundane rule set and a mythic rule set?
We got to pay attention with DC, because a non mythic warrior may also succeed high DC with magical help.

Do we want to have a mythic warrior and an actual warrior play aside, and not feel overwhelm by each other?

Do we want a mythic warrior with multiple sub classes as the fighter with his actual subclasses?

For lifting, I modified the rules. Ended up with strength^2 for all medium characters and strength^2.5 for large. It helps quite a bit when you combine that with a basic framework of what weighs what, and the ability to increase your lift by rolling athletics. DC 15 = x1.25, DC 20 = x1.5 and DC 25 = x2

Combined together, it gives a 1st level warrior with a 16 strength the ability to roll a thousand lb boulder with a crit. Which feels about right. Max it allows for a 20 strength human to move 1600 lbs on a roll of 14 or better on the dice.

If you want more? Just give them the ability to count as one size large, and all that jumps significantly.

 

[nevin]

There is no such thing as a real life gymnast with a strength of 16. That is strong enough to wrestle a gorilla or a grizzly bear.

There is likely no such thing as a real life gymnast with a strength of 14. That is strong enough to wrestle a boar, and gymnasts are strong, but also lithe. They likely do not have the muscle mass and strength to wrestle a boar to the ground.

So, at the highest, you might find real life gymnasts with a strength of 12. Because, again, we tend to forget what these numbers actually mean when we translate them between the game and the real world. A 16 is average for the game, but in the real world it begins representing literally inhuman amounts of strength.

In actuality, it would be more likely to say there are no such things as gymnasts with a 16 dex, but we have a harder time defining dexterity on a scale of real life.

true but also the limited DND concept of strength leaves out that the Gymnast's Abdominal, leg and other specific muscles are far far stronger than that fighter with a 16 strength who can break jaws with one punch. That guy in a real world scenario would be on the carpet crying after 15 minutes of trying to keep up.

 

[Yaarel]

You get the same benefit by using Athletics as the skill for it. The point was that trying to separate the two doesn't add anything to the game.

Athletes are not necessarily Weightlifters. Look at many long distance runners.

When Athletics absorbs Acrobatics, it emphasizes how Strength checks are agile.

Weightlifting is doing something else. It can still be agile, such as throwing a boulder, but is different from gymnastic stunts.

 

[Chaosmancer]

no but in the forest when the fireproof enemies attack you you are f****ed but I guess your DM telegraphs everything.

And this is why literally every single caster takes more than one damage type. Or do you never see someone take firebolt and ray of frost?

Also, how many enemies are immune to paralysis, charm, AND good at dex saves to avoid web? Are they also immune to fire and cold and thunder damage?