D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[CapnZapp]

In the 2014 game, Rogues were wonky in two (or just possibly three) ways:

* they were allowed a second helping of Sneak Damage on someone else's turn, but there was no help provided to allow new players to consistently score this extra damage. (Basically Haste was the closest you got in practice) Feels decidedly un-5E to demand such a special level of system mastery from one of the four core classes... and we're not talking some obscure high-level ability of just a special subclass either; we're taking about Sneak Attack, the class-defining feature you get at level 1.

* there were no ways to increase Sneak Damage. Not a one. None. No feat, no spell, no item, none whatsoever. We're talking about nearly every "hard" limit not actually being that hard, if you just know where to look (max 20 stats, max 3 attunements, and so on)... but for reasons, opening up the possibility of increased sneak damage would instantly have destroyed the entirety of Hasbro or something?

* the requirement to be up close to your foe wasn't valued correctly. You didn't need to sacrifice nearly enough combat potential to sneak attack at range to justify melee builds.

I hope the 2024 Rogue will be able to choose 1) more reliable ways to score a second helping of SA damage, 2) more SA damage, and/or 3) more compensation for only being able to hurt people with 5 ft.

I know there's increased versatility in how you use SA and a lot of tweaks involving skill monkeyism, but here I'm discussing the "combat rogue" aspect of the class where the ability to directly deprive your foes of their hit points is squarely the focus.

 

[Stalker0]

I was curious myself, so let me take a quick look at 5th level (which to me tends to be a very common level for my games and where a lot of the classes "fully come online").

Not optimizing for damage too much, lets look at a Thief Rogue, a Champion Fighter, and a Bear Totem Barbarian....some standard fare.

All classes will have 18 in their main stat. I'll assume 60% chance to hit + 5% chance to normally crit (though there are things here that modify that). So 65% to hit in total.

Fighter has Dueling Mastery and Sap on a longsword with improved critical.

Rogue goes with a Rapier/Scimitar (Vex/Nick). I'll assume steady aim for the first attack advantage, than check vex for adv on the second attack. the rogue will be near someone so its all sneak attack. The Nick will allow us to TWF each round even with the bonus action spent on steady aim.

Barbarian goes with rage, reckless attack, greatsword with graze. (interesting note btw, I just realized that Graze damage gets rage damage applied to it, as you are still doing damage with that weapon).

So the fighter represents a bit more of a defensive build, with the barb a more offensive.

I ran it through a sim with 100k runs to help with the vex and sneak attack parts that can be a bit tricky to do in math:

Level 5 DPR, 18 in main stat
Barbarian: 25.6
Fighter: 14.6
Rogue: 22.3

So take that as you will.

 

[mellored]

more compensation for only being able to hurt people with 5 ft.

Nick mastery does that.

You can move in, get 2 chances at sneak attack, and bonus action move away.

 

[Willie the Duck]

In the 2014 game, Rogues were wonky in two (or just possibly three) ways:

* they were allowed a second helping of Sneak Damage on someone else's turn, but there was no help provided to allow new players to consistently score this extra damage. (Basically Haste was the closest you got in practice) Feels decidedly un-5E to demand such a special level of system mastery from one of the four core classes... and we're not talking some obscure high-level ability of just a special subclass either; we're taking about Sneak Attack, the class-defining feature you get at level 1.

Just in general, the rogue seems a lot more system-mastery-ish than I think it maybe might best be. Not just because it's one of the core-four, but because the role (sneaky guy who survives amongst tin-can knights and spellcasting wizards through guile and derring-do) is an iconic one plenty of new players gravitate towards. It's not just sneak attack, but also action economy and (particularly for melee rogues) ending your turn in a defended position. It's hard to build a bad rogue, but easy to misplay one.

* there were no ways to increase Sneak Damage. Not a one. None. No feat, no spell, no item, none whatsoever. We're talking about nearly every "hard" limit not actually being that hard, if you just know where to look (max 20 stats, max 3 attunements, and so on)... but for reasons, opening up the possibility of increased sneak damage would instantly have destroyed the entirety of Hasbro or something?

If I were to hazard a guess, it was a reaction to earlier editions having the feat of +1D6 SA and the weapon of +1d6 SA and the miscellaneous item of +1d6 SA and so on. At some point, merely being a rogue was to be mediocre at something considered definitional to the rogue, and they didn't want to repeat that with 5E.

* the requirement to be up close to your foe wasn't valued correctly. You didn't need to sacrifice nearly enough combat potential to sneak attack at range to justify melee builds.

With cooperative allies (and then limiting yourself to their opponents) this is definitely true. Same with really cooperative DMs and hiding every round. If you had neither of those, I don't feel this was strictly the case until Steady Aim was implemented (although I can see how others may differ on this).

I hope the 2024 Rogue will be able to choose 1) more reliable ways to score a second helping of SA damage, 2) more SA damage, and/or 3) more compensation for only being able to hurt people with 5 ft.

I would have rather they upped the affect and tried to eliminate second-helping methods (again, because I don't think the rogue needs to be a high-system-mastery class), but batting that I do like more SA, ways to invoke it, and more things to do with it.

 

[CapnZapp]

So take that as you will.

How does this thing progress at higher levels?

At very low level Sneak Dice are quite competitive. But one extra die every other level is a pale shadow compared to how Fighter or Barb progresses.

 

[CapnZapp]

Just in general, the rogue seems a lot more system-mastery-ish than I think it maybe might best be. Not just because it's one of the core-four, but because the role (sneaky guy who survives amongst tin-can knights and spellcasting wizards through guile and derring-do) is an iconic one plenty of new players gravitate towards. It's not just sneak attack, but also action economy and (particularly for melee rogues) ending your turn in a defended position. It's hard to build a bad rogue, but easy to misplay one.

That too. I was specifically thinking about how the 2014 PHB basically tells you "you have the potential to do multiple sneak damages every round, except you will very likely find this impossible to pull off in practice".

This creates an entirely unnecessary gulf between hyperspecific minmaxers and most everybody else. It raises the suspicion Rogue SA is balanced on the assumption you do succeed in meeting this potential of yours at least sometimes. It would be MUCH MUCH MUCH better and GIGAMUCH SIMPLER if SA was restricted to once a round, especially if this opened up venues of topping up your sneak dice with class choices or items.

Basic stuff like how the Rogue benefits greatly when the player makes an effort to remain aware of the initiative order, and place himself accordingly, is not any less true; just that the levels of system mastery required to pull off two or more sneaks a round with any consistency is close to astronomical, which I feel is utterly uncharacteristic of 5E otherwise.

It would feel out of place for a level 17 ability only granted to a specific subclass of a splatbook supplementary class... let alone the level 1 class ability give to one of the iconic ultra-core four classes!

 

[CapnZapp]

If I were to hazard a guess, it was a reaction to earlier editions having the feat of +1D6 SA and the weapon of +1d6 SA and the miscellaneous item of +1d6 SA and so on. At some point, merely being a rogue was to be mediocre at something considered definitional to the rogue, and they didn't want to repeat that with 5E.

As long as we agree this has been emphatically proven to be not-a-concern.

Now, obviously if your sneak dice can be used in new and powerful ways, this might actually stop the idea to add more dice. (But it doesn't necessarily stop the idea to make the dice bigger...)

With cooperative allies (and then limiting yourself to their opponents) this is definitely true. Same with really cooperative DMs and hiding every round. If you had neither of those, I don't feel this was strictly the case until Steady Aim was implemented (although I can see how others may differ on this).

Relying on hiding has the (huge) problem that stealth is one of those things that are extremely DM and campaign specific. The culprit is official stealth rules that are vague enough that some groups read awesomeness into them while others simply ignore them and basically run the game with no stealth.

I would have rather they upped the affect and tried to eliminate second-helping methods (again, because I don't think the rogue needs to be a high-system-mastery class), but batting that I do like more SA, ways to invoke it, and more things to do with it.

Yes. Remove the entire "once a turn" thing. Make it "once a round" and open up the possibility of adding more dice. (And obviously the bonus needs to be proportional to the amount of sneak damage you already do. +2d6 is broken at level 1 but nothing special at level 20, for instance. And no, I didn't experience the d20 Craven feat nonsense but... wow)

Either that or give every Rogue a vanilla way to experience two sneaks per round, without having to rely on external factors (such as items or hoping foes trigger opportunity attacks). Ideally without overloading the Rogue's reaction, which is incredibly well used as it is.

I don't mind ways to spend sneak dice on other things, unless that offering is used as pretext to not offer a build path that focuses on more damage at the expense of everything else.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Nick mastery does that.

You can move in, get 2 chances at sneak attack, and bonus action move away.

Yes, but... you could just Vex with dual hand crossbows from a distance, with better odds of landing a hit/crit.

Edit: Ah, Rogues don't get proficiency with hand crossbows now. So Fighter1 dip is called for, because Archery remains a ridiculous fighting style. I guess that's something, at least.

 

[Stalker0]

Basic stuff like how the Rogue benefits greatly when the player makes an effort to remain aware of the initiative order, and place himself accordingly, is not any less true;

just noting this because a lot of people don’t know this…by the book you cannot alter your initiative once combat begins. Ready doesn’t change your initiative order, and there doesn’t exist a “delay” action like there is in 3e/4e.

I think a lot of tables either houseruke in a delay or don’t know that rule doesn’t exist.

It doesn’t change the main point of the quoted post, just an fyi for those who may not know that

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I was curious myself, so let me take a quick look at 5th level (which to me tends to be a very common level for my games and where a lot of the classes "fully come online").

Not optimizing for damage too much, lets look at a Thief Rogue, a Champion Fighter, and a Bear Totem Barbarian....some standard fare.

All classes will have 18 in their main stat. I'll assume 60% chance to hit + 5% chance to normally crit (though there are things here that modify that). So 65% to hit in total.

Fighter has Dueling Mastery and Sap on a longsword with improved critical.

Rogue goes with a Rapier/Scimitar (Vex/Nick). I'll assume steady aim for the first attack advantage, than check vex for adv on the second attack. the rogue will be near someone so its all sneak attack. The Nick will allow us to TWF each round even with the bonus action spent on steady aim.

Barbarian goes with rage, reckless attack, greatsword with graze. (interesting note btw, I just realized that Graze damage gets rage damage applied to it, as you are still doing damage with that weapon).

So the fighter represents a bit more of a defensive build, with the barb a more offensive.

I ran it through a sim with 100k runs to help with the vex and sneak attack parts that can be a bit tricky to do in math:

Level 5 DPR, 18 in main stat
Barbarian: 25.6
Fighter: 14.6
Rogue: 22.3

So take that as you will.

How dare you back up something with math. Gut feeling is waymore important.