D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Mistwell]

So agility is how that's done? Or is it brute strength to wear the HEAVY plate mail? The argument I am contending against is that strength = agility.

I probably didn't read enough context to understand the argument you're in the midst of. Sorry about that.

Any class that can wear armor can reach a 17 AC with studded leather and a 20 dex. That's only 1 single point of AC less than plate mail.

Sure but they had to devote a 20 in an ability score to get there, while the strength guy only needed a 15. So the plate guy can do it at lower levels than the Dex guy, and still have a higher AC.

And it tends to be easier to use a shield as a strength guy. Dex tends to encourage ranged weapons or two weapon fighting which precludes most uses of a shield.

The most common magic weapon found in published adventures is the magic longsword, which is going to the strength guy who can use it with a shield and be the 20 AC guy that stays in melee range for the rogue to get their sneak attack damage from range.

I am just not sure this is a "problem" which needs to be addressed. The balance between Strength and Dexterity PCs seems to work OK as it is right now.

A single point of difference in AC doesn't mean much. And that 17 is reached with 52 fewer pounds of armor!! Nearly 4 times the weight of the studded armor to achieve a single point more of AC means that the strength isn't doing much of anything.

Sure but who cares about the pounds of armor when the strength score used to wear it is also used to be able to carry it?

 

[tetrasodium]

I probably didn't read enough context to understand the argument you're in the midst of. Sorry about that.


Sure but they had to devote a 20 in an ability score to get there, while the strength guy only needed a 15. So the plate guy can do it at lower levels than the Dex guy, and still have a higher AC.

And it tends to be easier to use a shield as a strength guy. Dex tends to encourage ranged weapons or two weapon fighting which precludes most uses of a shield.

The most common magic weapon found in published adventures is the magic longsword, which is going to the strength guy who can use it with a shield and be the 20 AC guy that stays in melee range for the rogue to get their sneak attack damage from range.

I am just not sure this is a "problem" which needs to be addressed. The balance between Strength and Dexterity PCs seems to work OK as it is right now.




Sure but who cares about the pounds of armor when the strength score used to wear it is also used to be able to carry it?

Is the dex build really feeling out out by pumping dex to 20? You are talking about 20 dex as if it were intelligence.

 

[Maxperson]

I probably didn't read enough context to understand the argument you're in the midst of. Sorry about that.

No worries! I figured that was the case. It seemed like an odd position for you to take.

Sure but they had to devote a 20 in an ability score to get there, while the strength guy only needed a 15. So the plate guy can do it at lower levels than the Dex guy, and still have a higher AC.

Not necessarily. Rolling is one of the default methods of play. I can and have had 1st level PCs start with a 20 dex, which means 1st level is the lowest level you can do studded + 20 dex. Plate armor generally takes more levels than that to be purchased.

If stats are done point buy or array, then yes you are absolutely correct. It's also far more likely to get a 15 by rolling than an 18, so you will more often achieve lower level plate armor than lower level studded + 20 dex.

And it tends to be easier to use a shield as a strength guy. Dex tends to encourage ranged weapons or two weapon fighting which precludes most uses of a shield.

For myself, I prefer to use a shield for 2 points of AC over a smaller off hand weapon. A rapier and shield is pretty darn good.

The most common magic weapon found in published adventures is the magic longsword, which is going to the strength guy who can use it with a shield and be the 20 AC guy that stays in melee range for the rogue to get their sneak attack damage from range.

That's certainly true, though I know a lot of DMs select at least some of the magic items they place to be usable by the PCs, so a rapier using PC has a decent chance of coming across one. Randomly, though, that's not the case and longswords are more common.

I am just not sure this is a "problem" which needs to be addressed. The balance between Strength and Dexterity PCs seems to work OK as it is right now.

I agree with this.

 

[Yaarel]

Delete Acrobatics.

put everything in Athletics,
then use rule that you can use different abilities for different skill checks,
Most of the time it will be STR(climbing,jumping,swimming,breaking), but some of the time it will be DEX(balance, tumble) or maybe even CON(endurance checks).

Yeah, delete Acrobatics.

Everything Athletic, agile, and mobile equals Strength only.

But there are ways to "finesse" somethings.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Delete Acrobatics.

put everything in Athletics,
then use rule that you can use different abilities for different skill checks,
Most of the time it will be STR(climbing,jumping,swimming,breaking), but some of the time it will be DEX(balance, tumble) or maybe even CON(endurance checks).

I too am curious about a (possibly smaller) list of skills that are not tied to specific ability scores. However, I doubt that will happen in the revised books due to backwards compatibility requirements.

Want to climb a slippery slope or jump a chasm that you're not sure you can make? Make a Strength (Athletics) check.
Want to move quickly across a frozen lake or the deck of a ship in a storm? Make a Dexterity (Athletics) check.
Want to swim for a longer period of time in choppy water? Make a Constitution (Athletics) check.

Performance can be applied to many types of Ability Checks. Charisma for swaying a crowd with words, Dexterity for tumbling and dancing, Strength or Dexterity for mock combat and feats of strength that look confident or impressive. Intelligence for puzzles and riddles, etc.

There are also assumptions people make about what Ability checks can do. For instance, you can't just pickpocket anyone. Professional pickpockets know they need the right kind of target who isn't paying attention. Want to find out if a person is a good mark to pick their pocket, or find a random target? Make a Wisdom (Thievery) check. Want to actually pick that pocket? Make a Dexterity (Thievery) check.

While I'm curious about that kind of system, and kind of run it that way already in some ways, I'm fine with the system as is. I already know how I like to use it. (As a DM, I don't require many rolls. If a person is trained and I determine the effort will be well within their training and background (and danger is not a factor), I just give it to them as part of the story. But sometimes I will ask for a roll if I think a higher roll can lead to better results. I know you can make a DC 10 easy. But if I have you roll and you get a 26, that will impress everyone who sees it. Embrace being legendary.

 

[Vaalingrade]

While it might be more realistic, removing acrobatics and agility separate from strength also removes native tropes that still have way more value than realism.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Yeah, delete Acrobatics.

Everything Athletic, agile, and mobile equals Strength only.

But there are ways to "finesse" somethings.

100% Disagree with Strength-only, and with considering the system as one of "skill checks." Remember that the system is based on Ability checks. Not skill checks.

Even if Acrobatics were removed, the DM should not be asking for an Athletics check, and then roll a Strength check no matter what.

The DM would be more accurate to say "Make a Strength (Athletics) check, or a Dexterity (Athletics) check, or a Constitution (Athletics) check, based on the primary physical effort made to succeed. For example:

• Lifting or holding open a gate; or jumping a chasm that is just outside your normal limit; with a Strength (Athletics) check.
• Balancing while racing across an icy surface or rocking ship deck with a Dexterity (Athletics) check.
• Swimming or running for longer periods of time with a Constitution (Athletics) check.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I'll mention this here, and try to keep this on topic in regards to Rogues being among the top skill-monkey classes.

I think it would be interesting for every skill entry to include relevant examples how they may apply to any of the 6 ability scores for Ability Checks. Below are a couple examples:

Athletics
Strength (Athletics): Used for mighty efforts relying on muscle mass
Dexterity (Athletics): Used for agility efforts like balance and tumbling
Constitution (Athletics): Used for endurance efforts like long-term movement, whether swimming or keeping a fast pace/hustle over time
(Is there any reason a mental stat can be used for Athletics?)

Intimidate
Strength (Intimidate): Bend/break something with might to show what you're capable of.
Dexterity (Intimidate): Move quickly and with precision to be in their personal space, or flip/juggle a weapon with impressive skill and mastery.
Constitution (Intimidate): Ignore pain to show how tough you are, like put out a cigar in your palm, or otherwise harming oneself without flinching.
Intelligence (Intimidate): Outsmart them with words, reason, or critical thinking, to make them feel inferior.
Wisdom (Intimidate): Recognize a weakness on their person and call it out as something you have the power to use against them.
Charisma (Intimidate): Use your force of personality to eclipse their own.

 

[CapnZapp]

Correct, so it makes sense to divide them up into strength, dexterity/agility and constitution like the real world does in order to avoid confusion. The game gets it right.

Not when it asks martial characters to invest points in all three of them for marginal benefit.

The marginal benefit here is not being stopped cold by an incline, even if you are great at Dexterity.

Putting points in Constitution to gain hit points and Concentration saves? Fair enough.
Putting points in Strength to grapple and improve Strength saves? Fair enough.
Putting points in Dexterity to gain AC and Dexterity saves? Also fair enough.

But being asked to put points in Strength just to move vertically? Or in Dexterity just to balance on tightropes? Nah, get outta here. That would be outrageously expensive. And useless - any gamer worth his salt would simply turn to alternative solutions (read magic).

If you the DM allow would-be swashbucklers to acrobatics their way around a battlefield, you're doing it right.

If you think the PHB forces you to ask for Athletics checks, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Maxperson]

I too am curious about a (possibly smaller) list of skills that are not tied to specific ability scores. However, I doubt that will happen in the revised books due to backwards compatibility requirements.

Want to climb a slippery slope or jump a chasm that you're not sure you can make? Make a Strength (Athletics) check.
Want to move quickly across a frozen lake or the deck of a ship in a storm? Make a Dexterity (Athletics) check.
Want to swim for a longer period of time in choppy water? Make a Constitution (Athletics) check.

Yeah. I've engaged that optional rule for the 5e games that I have run. It only makes sense.