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D&D (2024) Do you plan to adopt D&D5.5One2024Redux?

Plan to adopt the new core rules?

  • Yep

    Votes: 255 53.2%
  • Nope

    Votes: 224 46.8%

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
<shrug> From my perspective, others are arguing that if your friend can't afford the new book, you need to kick them out of their game rather than just let them use a 2014 paladin or druid, because it's "too confusing" to have a two different versions of the same class.

If that's insane, I'm quite comfortable in the asylum. :)
Wow that's pretty cold blooded. Ime most d&d players are happy to let a friend use the books they have & vice versa even if the friend could afford the ones they don't have <shrug>


I wouldn't say a refusal to share to such an extreme degree is a reason to mandate the sort of problems you are pushing for. Even ddb's digital stuff can be shared somewhat. Why would you kick them before sharing?
 

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TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
Wow that's pretty cold blooded. Ime most d&d players are happy to let a friend use the books they have & vice versa even if the friend could afford the ones they don't have <shrug>


I wouldn't say a refusal to share to such an extreme degree is a reason to mandate the sort of problems you are pushing for. Even ddb's digital stuff can be shared somewhat. Why would you kick them before sharing?
Except it being a problem isn’t true. It’s a problem of mindset and inflexibility, not an actual gameplay problem.
 

Distracted DM

Distracted DM
Supporter
Then they should double down on confidence in their own design and stop pretending it's not a replacement for the 2014 material.
It's a business decision- it's not best for the game, it's best for the business. But to be fair, it's not the first time that such a decision's been made. They don't want to alienate existing audiences, they don't want to piss off retailers that still have stock of the old stuff... it's been the same decision that's been made time and time again, edition to edition, even back in TSR days.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Yea, that’s the attitude that doesn’t make sense to me. We’ve had the 2014 paladin and 2014 GWM for 10 years. They haven’t broken the game. Why would they somehow becomes problems just because a new book is out?

They kind of warp the game though. BG3 kinda proved it as well even without BG3 elements.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
I never got a single DM let me keep the 1 hour per level Bull's Strength duration from 3e. I had to use 3.5's 1 minute per level. And if a prestige class had a 3.5e update, we also had to use that. And so on. I played 3.5e with many DMs and players and kept playing it right up until 2019 and that held true the entire time.

I allowed curated 3.0 stuff. If it was updated use the 3.5 stuff.

The broken 3.0 stuff was right out though. No you can't use 3.0 haste or persistent spell over the 3.5 version.

If it didn't get a 3.5 update and wasn't inherently broken I allowed 3.0 stuff.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
It damages verisimilitude that every fighter, of which there are presumably thousands in the world, all learn to be proficient in heavy armor and every weapon known to man, and then learn an ability to attack super fast once during a fight once they train a little more.

You can't seriously be arguing that strict classes enhance verisimilitude? That's, like, the #1 reason that people started point-buy and skill-based games.
Ok, now, your comment was "There is no inherent value in having two characters with the same class be exactly the same.". That's what my confusion was about, certainly it make sense that two characters with the same class could be exactly the same- they could have been trained by the same master, for example.

Two identical characters is a bit different than every character! And yes, you're correct that if every Fighter was exactly the same, that would be a problem- but that's not the case and it hasn't been for a long time. As a previous poster noted, there are many ways you can customize your character, so that two members of the same class can be played very different.

For example, the Fighter.

You could build your Fighter to use ranged combat, large two handed weapons, two weapons, or weapon and shield. Your race, background, and ability scores could be different, as can be your fighting style. You can have different subclasses, and some subclasses, like the Battlemaster, give you choices of different abilities you can use. And playing a Battlemaster or an Eldritch Knight is a very different experience!

You could opt to multiclass. Or eventually acquire different Feats!

Your issue seems to be that it's strange for all Fighters to eventually gain Second Wind, Action Surge, Extra Attack, and Indomitable- a fairly small list of traits compared to all the previous points of potential difference. But I would counter that any Fighter would want Action Surge or Extra Attack, as they are incredibly useful abilities.

A purely ranged Fighter might not need Second Wind as badly as a melee Fighter, and well, nobody wants Indomitable (it's just terrible), so sure, there's a little room for alternate class abilities.

As for class-based vs. free form systems, there's advantages to either approach. If we're playing a free form system, it's possible for a player to make their character useless by investing in the wrong things, or to overspecialize to the point of ridiculousness. With a class based system, as long as someone puts their ability scores in reasonable places, I know that a 5th level Fighter gets 2 attacks and has an attack bonus of +5 to +8, no matter what else they did, which makes it way easier for me to plan encounters- if that damage verisimilitude, well, that's a sacrifice I can accept for the benefit of my sanity!
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Absolutely there are people who will continue with the 2014 edition. I just have no real sense for what portion that is, and didn't find the poll all that helpful in answering that particular question. Frankly it's hard to tell anything about the wider community from a message board.

We're not remotely representative here.

Hell I figured this out in 2002. The casuals were playing 3.0 mostly like 2E.

It was the boards that "broke" the game for the most part. IRL you would have to find a drunk DM who allowed everything, had the library to enable various combos and the players have the knowledge via the forums to do it.

Not saying it didn't happen but not as widespread as claimed. 4E "fixed" problems most of the player base likely didn't know about, cared about or lacked the knowledge to abuse. Alot of the high level builds would have been purely theoretical.

You could stumble on something like the 3.5 lvl 6 Druid with natural spell. That was probably a bigger problem than most min/maxed builds.
 
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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
We're not remotely representative here.

He'll I figured this out in 2002. The casuals were playing 3.0 mostly like 2E.

It was the boards that "broke" the game for the most part. IRL you would have to find a drunk DM who allowed everything, had the library to enable various combos and the players have the knowledge via the forums to do it.

Not saying it didn't happen but not as widespread as claimed. 4E "fixed" problems most of the player base likely didn't know about, cared about or lacked the knowledge to abuse. Alot of the high level builds would have been purely theoretical.

You could stumble on something like the 3.5 lvl 6 Druid with natural spell. That was probably a bigger problem than most min/maxed builds.
A frequent (and often true) statement in 3.5 is a lot of incredibly broken stuff came in the PHB: Wild Shape, Righteous Might/Divine Power, Simulacrum, Polymorph Any Object, Wish, Item Creation Feats, Leadership...
 

Zardnaar

Legend
A frequent (and often true) statement in 3.5 is a lot of incredibly broken stuff came in the PHB: Wild Shape, Righteous Might/Divine Power, Simulacrum, Polymorph Any Object, Wish, Item Creation Feats, Leadership...

Most if it was also high level. I suspect the numbers who got to high level were minimal even back then. WotC numbers iirc are 70% level 1-7 and 10% lvl 10 falling to 1% epic levels. Basically the really broken stuff you would never see.

Divide power was mostly fine by itself. Righteous Might was better but level 9 before it mattered.

Druid was a big exception by itself but wasn't that popular so most groups likely never saw one let alone one piloted by a power gamer.

I did see a Druid piloted by a somewhat decent player. He wasn't plugged into the online meta but knew enough to optimize it at a basic level eg summon stuff, natural spell. He missed the fests in splat books and certain PrCs.
 


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