D&D (2024) What is your oppinion of 5.24 so far?

[Corinnguard]

OTOH, it's a weighty tome now!

Not as weighty as the PHB's for PF1, PF2 and Level Up.

 

[ECMO3]

Weren't CR pathfinder before 5e? I wouldn't be surprised if they'd kept up with pathfinder if that became more popular, I still think 5e would be in a great position but I do wonder how much of an impact CR and others may have had on 5e's popularity during a time when everyone was stuck at home and seeking anything that could keep them entertained. It's probably not anything that we could really measure so it'll remain in the area of "what if?"

I believe they were an older version of D&D before 5E.

FWIW 5E is the best RPG system I have played in my 44 year history of gaming. AD&D 1E is the second best IMO.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

Great Weapon Master actually got improved, and the ceiling is WAY up on martial DPR. Lots of folks have done the math; Treantmonk has a whole series of videos. Most folks are vastly underestimating how much weapon mastery by itself increases DPR, let alone the other goodies that have been spread around.

I don't see how anyone can argue that GWM is improved - can you link the math on that? I'm looking thru Treantmonk videos but only found one old one using some bad assumptions (Champion fighter, no advantage). GWM currently adds WAY more than 3-6 damage per round under most builds, which is the max you can get with the new GWM (if the UA I'm looking at is still correct...)

Also how do you figure that weapon mastery substantially increases DPR? Increased utility is obvious, but only Nick really helps DPR and that's specifically for underpowered two-weapon fighting (which needs a big buff to even be worth considering). Cleave is awesome in rare situations but most of the time will do nothing. Graze brings up average DPR a bit, but doesn't help ceiling damage at all. And then all the rest of the masteries are utility only with no damage - you could argue that some help gain advantage more easily, but advantage is already guaranteed in any build that is properly designed.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

DnD is popular not because its the best system (very much not). Its popular because its well positioned and has a major corpoartions marketing team behind it.

And "best" is subjective. It continues to be "best" for me. My entire group understands it well and enjoys it; the classes and monsters are cool; the rules are structured in a way that they don't get in the way; and it is very easy to house-rule because so many rules are just modular objects that can be removed or redefined (look at the 2024 books). Heck, it's so good and modular that everyone else wants to make expansions and build on it. A5E and ToV are D&D, completely compatible, and are awesome.

It's so good that there are even players who would play the 2014 version as-is (at least their own personalized version), rather than switch to another system or add the new revised rules. (Though we'll see how long that lasts. A well-designed DMG with a built in Greyhawk campaign you're encouraged to make your own could really turn some heads).

And the revised 2024 content looks like they learned a lot from our community, implemented pretty great-looking enhancements. I'm enjoying the ride on the hype train.

I love D&D as much as Micah loves A5E.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Seeing as how I haven't bought a new version of Dungeons & Dragons in ten years... I'm going to buy the books and play the game cause why not? I've run enough 5E14 over the past decade that playing another version of D&D now will be fun (even if the new version is not that big a change.)

That's always been my saving grace when it comes to the past 50 years... I just enjoy the schtick and essence of Dungeons & Dragons regardless of what the actual rules are. The rules never really matter to me, because I don't play D&D or RPGs for the board game, I play for the characterization and roleplaying. So TSR or WotC or whomever can print out new rules every bunch of years and I'll buy them and play them cause the rules are merely the fork that shovels the roleplaying food into my mouth.

Yeah, I agree with a lot of that. But I actually do like the rules too.

I don't need a Revised 5E. But I do appreciate it because anything can be refined and improved. And after 10 years, it's an acceptable, welcome, and refreshing update. Even if I don't like still having to look in the MM for druid forms

 

[Oofta]

I believe they were an older version of D&D before 5E.

Critical Role - Wikipedia ... started as a one shot 4E game for Liam's birthday, switched to PF for ongoing game then 5E for streaming.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I don't see how anyone can argue that GWM is improved - can you link the math on that? I'm looking thru Treantmonk videos but only found one old one using some bad assumptions (Champion fighter, no advantage). GWM currently adds WAY more than 3-6 damage per round under most builds, which is the max you can get with the new GWM (if the UA I'm looking at is still correct...)

Also how do you figure that weapon mastery substantially increases DPR? Increased utility is obvious, but only Nick really helps DPR and that's specifically for underpowered two-weapon fighting (which needs a big buff to even be worth considering). Cleave is awesome in rare situations but most of the time will do nothing. Graze brings up average DPR a bit, but doesn't help ceiling damage at all. And then all the rest of the masteries are utility only with no damage - you could argue that some help gain advantage more easily, but advantage is already guaranteed in any build that is properly designed.

When you say "improved" do you mean more broken and powerful than it was? Does "improve" mean "moar dpr?" Because to me, and improvement can very well mean broadening the usefulness and function while tamping down on math that was more easily taken advantage of.

They took away from the ceiling, and made it more fun, while being an appropriate power level for feats of the same "level".

I don't like Feats that are "Sky Blue/Golden/Must Take" compared to all other feats. I do like competitive feats that capture the story essence of what they are supposed to represent.

 

[DarkCrisis]

More bloat which will slow the game. To much player power that will vex the DM. If you want more of a story game with little actual threat, this seems the thing to have. Which if that's what floats your boat, more power and fun to you.

Perhaps the DMG and MM will change my opinion, but I doubt it.

I'm sure I'll end up running it or playing it or both because it's what the modern gamers know. Easier to find a 5E (5.5) game than an OSE game (or anything else).

By the by, where I think WotC really needs to focus next is turning out top tier adventures because most have serious issues. I had plan to run Vecna but all I hear it bad things.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

When you say "improved" do you mean more broken and powerful than it was? Does "improve" mean "moar dpr?"

Fair question, I was responding to someone who I assumed meant "more damage per round", but maybe I had that wrong.

I would definitely argue that GWM is "improved" in the sense of being a much better design even if the damage is lower. The old version was overpowered, while also being very much NOT fun to use (because missing sucks) but then even less fun if you didn't use it (because doing crappy damage sucks more). I'm really glad they changed it

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

By the by, where I think WotC really needs to focus next is turning out top tier adventures because most have serious issues. I had plan to run Vecna but all I hear it bad things.

I think that high level adventures are very challenging because high level characters (with their skills, relics and magics) are very challenging.

First, what do people really want and expect from a 16+ level campaign? It's not going to be low-magic. The game isn't magic-less barbarians riding and hunting titanic Beasts for meat and glory. (Well, it can, and that sounds cool... but...) But it uses the assumed multiverse of D&D. You can't be level 16+ and not be famous and powerful. You've done things to earn that experience. BIG things. Fought and Used Big Magic things. You've saved or destroyed cities, if not realms, by now. Is that the kind of story you want? If you don't want that, you might be writing your own adventures anyway that work better for your style.

Second, the characters are so varied in different realms of focus or effectiveness that it's hard to design around. There's pretty fun character concepts that aren't as effective, vs. the extremely effective characters, like, Damage classes pouring Decanters of Endless Damage upon their foes, and Tank/Healer Duos that are nearly indestructible, and many Spellcasters are good at seeing what's coming and influencing the outcome with their knowledge and magic. Characters get such specialized and/or amazing abilities, they can either be useless to a situation, or bypass threats entirely (unless there is a built-in reason to regularly foil the players' tactics, which shouldn't be a crutch). It has to be written in a way that makes sense for such a diverse variety of characters. Our players are mathematical and/or creative, out-of-the-box, geniuses. It's hard to plan for.

Third, the adventure needs a good hook, worthy of Legendary 16th level characters, that has to mean something. Is it just that it defines an era, or becomes the history of the land? Does it have cosmic impact? Can it just be a popular theme like "Space Pirates?" Is it "The Great Red Wyrm vs. Heroes who have collected the Relics of Primordial Power"? It needs something unique that makes it stand out. Is story good enough? Or does a new mechanical expression, or rule, or interesting story structure sound really tempting? Something that might draw attention of, or be of use to, DMs to who use it for their own purposes and inspirations? It needs to be useful. Valuable. Those are the memorable ones. I LOVED Curse of Strahd's use of the Tarokka and randomizing the relics. It made that adventure so much more re-usable.

Sometimes you swing for the fences and miss. But most of the time they don't. And I respect the effort. I already plan on cannibalizing all kinds of ideas, maps, creatures, and encounters, if the adventure doesn't fit my currently planned multi-year campaign, you know?