D&D (2024) PHB 2024 Is Hilariously Broken. Most OP of All Time?

[dave2008]

of course not, but if you fail this one, you are not compatible with 2014. To not be compatible, you do not need to fail all criteria, you need to fail one.

I disagree, but regardless that is the metric WotC is most keen it seems

 

[DarkCrisis]

It doesn't hold a candle to 4E. But there is only so much design space, especially when it comes to weapons. People complained that martial characters didn't have enough options and now we're getting complaints that because they were given options there's too much tracking! It's a no win scenario.

Which for me means people missed the point of the class. Fighters (and the like) have a ton of AC and HP, that's their special power. Not to mention better "to hit" values and an extra attack (usually).

Not every class needs to do everything every other class can do in it's own way. Which I know is just a foreign concept for modern gaming.

4th Ed literally made every class 99% the same and WotC has never truly un-spilled that milk.

But it is what it is. Just makes it really unwieldy and somewhat of a pain to DM in certain ways. Especially compared to other RPGs. D&D still does a lot right it just can't not be bloated.

(All praise the OSR)

 

[dave2008]

@Zardnaar, here is the Kuo-Toa:

2014
CR: 1/4
HP: 18
AC: 13
attack / save: +3/ DC 10/11
DPR: 5

2024
CR: 1/4
HP: 18
AC: 13
attack / save: +3/ DC 10/11
DPR: 5

no change between 2014 and 2024

 

[mellored]

All those easy to apply conditions to keep track of during battle. Not to mention HP etc. Reeks of WotC wants a computer/AI to keep track of all of it for you.

Still less than than all the buffs you could stack in 3e.

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

Commercially I think WotC has been on the right track since 3e, but have refined the process with 5e. Release edition with lots of broken stuff, let the fan debate rage for a while, make errata but keep most broken stuff. While the debate temp keeps on being high, release a supplement book with even more broken stuff and a good amount of power creep, temperature rises again. Keep the new book-rising debate cycle going until the edition is milked out, then release half-edition, rinse and repeat until it's time for another full edition. Share holder value keeps improving, everyone rejoice.

Edit: And of course it will be easier to refine and raise the tempo of the commercial cycle with a digital format as standard. Good stuff.

 

[dave2008]

@Zardnaar, here is the Minotaur Skeleton:

2014
CR: 2
HP: 67
AC: 12
attack / save: +6/ DC 14
DPR: 18.66

2024
CR: 2
HP: 45
AC: 12
attack / save: +6
DPR: 15.33

32% reduction in HP and 18% reduction in DPR from 2014 to 2024

 

[Oofta]

Which for me means people missed the point of the class. Fighters (and the like) have a ton of AC and HP, that's their special power. Not to mention better "to hit" values and an extra attack (usually).

Not every class needs to do everything every other class can do in it's own way. Which I know is just a foreign concept for modern gaming.

I don't disagree with you, but a lot of people did.

4th Ed literally made every class 99% the same and WotC has never truly un-spilled that milk.

But it is what it is. Just makes it really unwieldy and somewhat of a pain to DM in certain ways. Especially compared to other RPGs. D&D still does a lot right it just can't not be bloated.

(All praise the OSR)

Sap and slow are really the only ones that will be a bit annoying to track. Other than that it's something that happens immediately. I'm going to be using them for a while to see what the impact is before I decide whether or not we're going to use them.

 

[Oofta]

Still less than than all the buffs you could stack in 3e.

Good lord, don't remind me. I had a chart for my two-weapon power attacking (I had a chart for how much to power attack based on average damage based on target AC) fighter that added up all the buffs I could get and then still had to remember things like +1 for charging and +2 for higher ground and so on.

 

[mellored]

Which for me means people missed the point of the class. Fighters (and the like) have a ton of AC and HP, that's their special power. Not to mention better "to hit" values and an extra attack (usually).

Take Graze, be a Champion and call it a day.

Not every class needs to do everything every other class can do in it's own way.

You mean like 2014 barbarian, fighter, and monk would all just stand around hitting and being hit?

Yea, we didn't need 10 ways to do that. Champion and Beserker are enough.

Sap and slow are really the only ones that will be a bit annoying to track.

And Ray of Frost has been in the game since day 1. No one complained about it.

 

[Quickleaf]

3. Result-oriented readings. 5e is written in "natural language," but also uses "specific terms," which somehow combines the worst of both worlds. You read the rules naturally, but also pay attention to sometimes minute differences in specific word choices ... usually involving various adjectives combined with "attack." Anyway, a lot of the exploits are people straining to read the rules in ways

That made me chuckle. Very very true. 5e's writing style (doubled down on in 2024 it seems) is trying to have the cake and eat it too – I can imagine ways to blend those two approaches (difficult but possible), though so far I don't think they've succeeded.