D&D (2024) Rogues can now Sneak Attack with all thrown weapons - Tridents, Spears, Handaxes, they all work!

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't know. Remember, melee attack and melee weapon attack were different in 5e. Those seemed to be the same to most people I know who read it.

You might be right, but if you are it's extremely silly to require finesse on a weapon unless it's a trident and you can throw it. Then the game throws finesse right out the window.

It seems very, very probable that the rule was intended to work with thrown weapons only when used at range and not in melee.

Not only that. Most thrown weapons are melee weapon (only the dart is a ranged weapon).

Ok. I just looked up which ability modifier tonuse with which weapon. See attachment...

So by that table, making ranged attacks with non melee weapons use dexterity by default....

The whole thing is really not written better than the 2014 rule book...

The thrown property clarifies that...

 

[Paul Farquhar]

To summarise:

Dagger: uses dexterity because it's a finesse weapon. Can sneak attack.
Dart: uses dexterity because it's a ranged weapon. Can sneak attack.
Javelin, spear, hand axe, trident, any other thrown weapon. Uses strength because it's a melee weapon. Cannot sneak attack.
Bows, slings etc. Use dexterity because they are ranged weapons. Can sneak attack.

This is the same in 2014 and 2024, despite slight changes in the wording.

 

[roguish]

Melee or Ranged. A weapon is classified as either Melee or Ranged.

Trident is a Martial Melee Weapon, that has the Thrown property.

Thrown
If a weapon has the Thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack, and you can draw that weapon as part of the attack. If the weapon is a Melee weapon, use the same ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls that you use for a melee attack with that weapon.


If the Trident was a "Ranged" weapon, then everyone would need to use Dex to attack with it.

Exactly. "Range" (p.214) is a property some weapons have. Specifically, two kinds of weapons have the "range" property: Ranged weapons (which is a binary classification: weapons are either ranged or melee, p.213), and "thrown" weapons (which is a property some but not all melee weapons have, p.214).

By the rules, rogues cannot sneak attack with thrown melee weapons, unless they are also finesse weapons.

Do you have to stick to the rules? Of course not! You can do what you like.

What I like is character concepts. If I have a cool character concept that can be represented mechanically by fiddling with the rules, I simply fiddle with the rules, no qualms and no remorse. I've played plenty of brawler rogues who could sneak attack with unarmed strikes. Because it's cool. (And doesn't break anything. Fiddling with full casters might require more caution, but martials? Eh, it's fine.) I've multiclassed Monk and Rogue to end up with ninja, and applied sneak attack to all weapons a ninja would be expected to use. You can just as easily refluff things ("I'm throwing shuriken, but using dart stats"), but it doesn't matter how you get there. If it's cool, just get there. Why shut down a character concept just because the rules didn't predict it? They can't predict everything, can they?

Well, YMMV, but that's how I see it. DMs don't have to make rules and rulings for the whole wide world. Nor are they publishing a game to a wide audience. They only need to cater to the needs and preferences of their players, their group (including themselves! the DM has to have a good time, too!). They're supposed to run the game, not design it.

 

[James Gasik]

And we're back to "a ranged attack made with a weapon =/= an attack with a ranged weapon". You know, I wasted a good twenty minutes trying to explain this to a new player not long back- they looked at me like I was insane!

 

[aco175]

I have given dwarves the hand axe as a finesse weapon. Not sure if I want it permanent though. I had it as a feat option.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

And we're back to "a ranged attack made with a weapon =/= an attack with a ranged weapon". You know, I wasted a good twenty minutes trying to explain this to a new player not long back- they looked at me like I was insane!

Just tell them it’s like a melee weapon attack is not the same as an attack with a melee weapon. Simple!

 

[TiQuinn]

And we're back to "a ranged attack made with a weapon =/= an attack with a ranged weapon". You know, I wasted a good twenty minutes trying to explain this to a new player not long back- they looked at me like I was insane!

I blame the end of Ladyhawke. After that movie everyone wanted to throw their sword!

 

[MarkB]

I blame the end of Ladyhawke. After that movie everyone wanted to throw their sword!

Hey, John Cleese was throwing swords ten years before Ladyhawke.

"None shall pass!"

 

[DEFCON 1]

While the Weapon Masteries now make it a little more difficult to choose/assign... I will still probably use in 5E24 the same ruling I used in 5E14: Whatever is the "best" weapon you can use for the type of attack you wish to make that can include Finesse and/or Sneak Attack... you can use it and fluff the weapon however you wish. Saves a whole lot of trouble.

A dwarf rogue wishes that they could have a mining pick as their one-handed DEX-based rogue weapon because it made sense thematically for their character? Just have them select the 1d8 Finesse "Rapier" mechanics and then refluff the weapon as a mining pick-- even if a "war pick" exists in the Weapons chart. Want to dual-wield sickles even though "officially" those weapons are 1d4 and you otherwise could be using scimitars for the 1d6? Go right ahead and use the 1d6 damage die and scimitar mastery for your "sickles". Doesn't matter whatsoever. I do not believe a person should deliberately have to nerf themselves just to get the weapon appearance they want.

That being said... I'm also a believer that as soon as someone says "I've found a loophole in the rules! I can now do X!"... it is imperative that the DM says "No you can't. Loopholes are literally gaps in the rules not because they were written to be there but because the space and wording needed to be more clear wasn't available." Not a single DM should ever be held hostage to ridiculous scenarios just due to the wants and needs of book editing and layout. Simple rule that every player should remember-- does it sound like you've found some special way to get a bigger bonus than you normally would get based upon some special reading and interpretation of the rules? Then it wasn't meant to occur and don't try and claim it. Look at the game logically and ask "Does this sound like something WotC expected to be a standard rule?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Hey, John Cleese was throwing swords ten years before Ladyhawke.

"None shall pass!"

Conan was doing it back in 1930s!