D&D (2024) PHB 2024 Is Hilariously Broken. Most OP of All Time?

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I listed the various things that popped out immediately.

Alot are countering but 3.5 Druid or 3.5 listing non core options. Druid was also least popular Class.

Level 10 cleric can cast hallow as an action making everything vulnerable.

We have been going over the grapple builds. Potentially more damage than 3.5 Druid at similar levels.

Spirit guardians and a fast cleric has been covered. Abuseable by carrying the cleric around.

It's the sheer quantity of abuse one can do even without cheesing it. Fast cleric and repelling blast isn't that rare a combo or fast cleric by itself.

There's a lot more movement based effects with weapon masteries and things like world tree barbarians.

Basically it's not hard to do and doesn't require elaborate setups. And it's at levels people actually play (4--10).

I was just pointing out that the your thread title is extremely hyperbolic... which led, at least in part I'm sure, to the poster accusing you of being hyperbolic.

Having said that... are you listening to the counterarguments to your points? It doesn't feel like you are to me. The thing with the dragging to the side in particular.

It's:

1. A personal interpretation of dragging, not defined in the rules.
2. A pretty bizarre interpretation of the word, particularly given real world physics (if that kind of thing matters to you).

Calling out spells that appear OP as a result of this interpretation is a bit odd.

You've just listed quite a few points of contention... wish I had time to go through all of them. Some could be legitimate, sorry about that! I know future readers of this response would super duper appreciate an item by item rebuttal... who doesn't love those posts, amirite?

I'll just leave you with this: consider how many folks are disagreeing with you. Consider the flimsiness of some of your stances, and their reliance on squinting at the rules in a very personal, specific and shaky way. Consider how you have pointed out some legitimately effective combos but others have equally legitimately pointed out that those are not as over-powered as one might think. Is it possible you have a preconception and you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole?

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Someone doesn't suddenly become weightless just because you're carrying them. By your logic you could drag a horse around with you, after all you can grapple any creature up to one size larger than you.

AKA: "martials can't do cool things because realism"

I'm pretty sure it's intentional in the rules that a fighter can grapple an ogre and drag it around. A grappled creature isn't a sack of potatos, it's a creature that's moving by itself, and a skilled wrestler can force it to move in the direction he is pulling.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

AKA: "martials can't do cool things because realism"

I'm pretty sure it's intentional in the rules that a fighter can grapple an ogre and drag it around. A grappled creature isn't a sack of potatos, it's a creature that's moving by itself, and a skilled wrestler can force it to move in the direction he is pulling.

That's certainly in line with the sort of stuff Conan does (currently rereading the original stories).

 

[clearstream]

I love that the people who look at the playtest/2024 grapple mechanics and say "it's not broken" rather than "holy heck, this is going to cause problems" / "This is broken" are also suggesting that the gm add & define drag in a way that tries to code around the broken mechanic rather than expecting an errata from the industry leading 800 pound gorilla who shrugged off playtest concerns to publish that grapple anyways.

(Emphasis mine.) The word "drag" appears on PHB p367 and in order to apply the rules in full for the Grappled (Condition) players perforce must give that word some definition. The accusation made seems to be one of reading the rules.

 

[clearstream]

AKA: "martials can't do cool things because realism"

I'm pretty sure it's intentional in the rules that a fighter can grapple an ogre and drag it around. A grappled creature isn't a sack of potatos, it's a creature that's moving by itself, and a skilled wrestler can force it to move in the direction he is pulling.

Mulling this over, what happens if the creature declares it's not attempting movement of its own (going into sack of potatoes mode)? Or to sharpen the thought experiment, what happens if the creature loses its last hit point while being dragged?

Seeing as an argument from realism that "it's a creature that's moving by itself, and a skilled wrestler can force it to move in the direction he is pulling" seems to fail in those situations, I feel it is better - if one wants to argue in that direction - to avoid explaining it other than in terms of what is permissible in game.

One way that I can see to enable the kinds of stories you want to tell RAWfully is for DM to follow the rules on PHB 20. The way "Carrying Objects" is worded, carrying capacity only applies in cases that DM determines are unusual. They can simply say that - fighter drags an ogre around - is usual in this game world. They can even say it's only "usual" while that Ogre is alive.

 

[Zardnaar]

(Emphasis mine.) The word "drag" appears on PHB p367 and in order to apply the rules in full for the Grappled (Condition) players perforce must give that word some definition. The accusation made seems to be one of reading the rules.

I just read it. It's mostly fluff.

It's also drag or carry.

Grappler feat specifically says you can move at full speed drag or carry doesn't matter. Feat over rules general rule.

Opportunity cost is low. You still deal damage if the grapple fails.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Seeing as an argument from realism that "it's a creature that's moving by itself, and a skilled wrestler can force it to move in the direction he is pulling" seems to fail in those situations, I feel it is better - if one wants to argue in that direction - to avoid explaining it other than in terms of what is permissible in game.

If someone passes out in the middle of a martial arts throw you can still throw them. IMO, it's up to the player to narrate exactly how their character achieves what the rules allow them to do.

 

[Zardnaar]

I was just pointing out that the your thread title is extremely hyperbolic... which led, at least in part I'm sure, to the poster accusing you of being hyperbolic.

Having said that... are you listening to the counterarguments to your points? It doesn't feel like you are to me. The thing with the dragging to the side in particular.

It's:

1. A personal interpretation of dragging, not defined in the rules.
2. A pretty bizarre interpretation of the word, particularly given real world physics (if that kind of thing matters to you).

Calling out spells that appear OP as a result of this interpretation is a bit odd.

You've just listed quite a few points of contention... wish I had time to go through all of them. Some could be legitimate, sorry about that! I know future readers of this response would super duper appreciate an item by item rebuttal... who doesn't love those posts, amirite?

I'll just leave you with this: consider how many folks are disagreeing with you. Consider the flimsiness of some of your stances, and their reliance on squinting at the rules in a very personal, specific and shaky way. Consider how you have pointed out some legitimately effective combos but others have equally legitimately pointed out that those are not as over-powered as one might think. Is it possible you have a preconception and you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole?

Alot of it is over what the rules say.

Others are things like it requires to many things to set up.

It's not hard to repelling blast people into zone, emanations or whatever.

The rules changing facilitate this. I'm not sure picking up a cleric and running with them per PC is that viable (it's kinda silly/cheesy but RAW).

In a real situation it's not hard to get double or triple duty out of say spirit guardians.

Yolandes the spell actually pushs them out for you if they flunk a save. Repelling blast them back in. Or any forced movement.

No one's really commented much on cleric example. One person said hallow doesn't do much. No save vulnerability to a damage type of your choice 60' is great. It's why you use hold spells for free crits.

Reaction casting buff spells also works RaW with warcaster.

 

[clearstream]

I just read it. It's mostly fluff.

You contend then, that the words under "Grappled (Condition)" don't amount to rules? Or just particular of them?

It's also drag or carry.

Acknowledged. I presupposed that seeing as being carried would surely force the bearer to enter squares they wanted to inflict damage on you (and further presupposing that you want to contend that spikes deal damage to creatures carried over them) it seemed besides the point.

Grappler feat specifically says you can move at full speed drag or carry doesn't matter. Feat over rules general rule.

I agree that another route to achieving what you want is to say that Grappler feat is a case of specific beats general. But then I don't see why one can't say that the Carrying Objects rule when DM chooses to apply it to a specific case, is not even more specific. The answer may depend on whether you think carrying capacity is used by default? To my reading, it's not used by default due to words like "unusually" and "might".

Let's take the case where a DM says that carrying capacity is always in force. In that case, I agree with you, Grappler is more specific. That being so, my examples up-thread show how I believe that goes.

 

[mamba]

You drag them along the edge of the spike growth. They're in it. You are not.

that is not how dragging works, you can drag things behind you, you are not holding them out to your side. That is a lot closer to carrying than dragging