D&D General Playstyle vs Mechanics

[Mort]

Worse is the tendency for these discussions to give players a free pass when they blatantly play as the second group where their role is to overcome at any cost while invoking the role play vre rollplay shield of that first group's role of tell a story to kneecap & paint the gm as an unreasonable hostile actor leaping to undermining players over the most trivial of unexpected snags.

Obviously wotc felt that was an unreasonable catch 22 to continue tackling GM's with when they removed the features themselves.

Is it really a thing where those domineering players use "the rules" as a club against the poor defenseless DM? Because I've NEVER seen that.

 

[Bae'zel]

Is it really a thing where those domineering players use "the rules" as a club against the poor defenseless DM? Because I've NEVER seen that.

It's really only happened to me a handful of times over the past 25-ish years, but these incidents were wholly interpersonal problems, not rules problems.

The internet is extraordinary at amplifying hyperbole.

 

[OptionalRule]

This is just simply not true.

5e can EASILY be made much more gritty (if that's what you want) and the DMG has plenty of advice for how to do so. Heck, eliminate death saves and watch how suddenly grim and gritty the campaign gets!

Does it support every genre and playstyle - not even close, but it can EASILY support any of the ones 2e was decent at and likely do it even better (rules set is just more consistent and has some modern refinements).

There are many different playstyles, gritty is only one of them. 5e is fragile in the tweaking the rules for a playstyle shift causes cascading problems across the system in ways other editions did not.

To your specific comments on gritty play, your commnets are so wrong it's hard to address them.

1. Taking away deaths saves isn't more gritty. It's just killing characters. This is one of the most common missrepresentations people make about that playstyle. It's not about killing characters (though you may), it's about emphasising the risk proportion of risk/reward in game design.

2. The rules for gritty play in the DMG aren't gritty play. Telling characters they only get a long rest once a week doesn't change anything except game pacing. You could do the same by throwing a weeks worth of encounters at a party in a single day. It has nothign to do with gritty play, it just changes the pace of the game and encounters.

The fact that people don't understand this, and that the game itself doesn't offer actual solutions to other playstyles is one of the strongest examples of how fragile 5e is in terms of play style.

 

[Bae'zel]

There are many different playstyles, gritty is only one of them. 5e is fragile in the tweaking the rules for a playstyle shift causes cascading problems across the system in ways other editions did not.

To your specific comments on gritty play, your commnets are so wrong it's hard to address them.

...

The fact that people don't understand this, and that the game itself doesn't offer actual solutions to other playstyles is one of the strongest examples of how fragile 5e is in terms of play style.

Can you please provide an example of a game system that meets your definition of a gritty game? Just so that we're speaking from the same baseline.

 

[OptionalRule]

Burning Wheel

Can you please provide an example of a game system that meets your definition of a gritty game? Just so that we're speaking from the same baseline.

Sure. First, I want to be clear. I'm not making the argument 5e should be more gritty. The topic is how well it supports different playstyles. Gritty is just one playstyle.

In terms of systems that are gritty. Burning Wheel, WFRP, Mork Borg (forgive the absence of accents), even newer systems like Zweihander. They mix in different elements but it's not about simply killing characters. Yes brutal and unforgiving damage or combat, but also wound and healing management, progressive wound systems other forms of danger like sanity or corruption. Risks, stakes of failure, and the subsystems that manage them are usually multi-dimensional.

 

[Oofta]

There are many different playstyles, gritty is only one of them. 5e is fragile in the tweaking the rules for a playstyle shift causes cascading problems across the system in ways other editions did not.

To your specific comments on gritty play, your commnets are so wrong it's hard to address them.

1. Taking away deaths saves isn't more gritty. It's just killing characters. This is one of the most common missrepresentations people make about that playstyle. It's not about killing characters (though you may), it's about emphasising the risk proportion of risk/reward in game design.

2. The rules for gritty play in the DMG aren't gritty play. Telling characters they only get a long rest once a week doesn't change anything except game pacing. You could do the same by throwing a weeks worth of encounters at a party in a single day. It has nothign to do with gritty play, it just changes the pace of the game and encounters.

The fact that people don't understand this, and that the game itself doesn't offer actual solutions to other playstyles is one of the strongest examples of how fragile 5e is in terms of play style.

If previous editions were more flexible it was because there were so many gaps in the rules. I have no idea how you define "gritty" though. Starvation? Exhaustion? Running out of resources because you can't take a rest? Those are all easy things to do in 5E.

Just saying "other games do it" doesn't mean much of anything without a how.

 

[pemerton]

The fiction bends all the time to serve the mechanics, and vice versa. There's a back and forth. When someone decides they're going to resort to violence, we then have all the participants roll initiative, and then that tells us who goes first, and so on.

I've been told this is a strawman!

 

[Bae'zel]

Burning Wheel

Sure. First, I want to be clear. I'm not making the argument 5e should be more gritty. The topic is how well it supports different playstyles. Gritty is just one playstyle.

In terms of systems that are gritty. Burning Wheel, WFRP, Mork Borg (forgive the absence of accents), even newer systems like Zweihander. They mix in different elements but it's not about simply killing characters. Yes brutal and unforgiving damage or combat, but also wound and healing management, progressive wound systems other forms of danger like sanity or corruption. Risks, stakes of failure, and the subsystems that manage them are usually multi-dimensional.

Okay I feel ya now.

I admit that I've yet to be satisfied by any approach on permanent injuries, diseases, curses and the like in any D&D system so far without relying on third-party material (eg Adventures in Middle Earth, Inferno, Dark Souls and Brancalonia for 5e).

 

[prabe]

I've been told this is a strawman!

Gotta be a strawman. It's not ever a hiccup when a conversation goes violent.

 

[pemerton]

I do it when I have to in a practical sense, which yes does happen most often in the combat system. It is an abstraction necessary for play. Even then, I do my best to use mechanics that fiction at hand, not the other way around. The example we're discussing is easy to not use, so I don't.

There's actually no reason combat can't be free-formed too. (As I think someone already said upthread - maybe @soviet?)