D&D (2024) Fireball/Lightning Bolt vs Chromatic Orb?

[FrogReaver]

Save for half. CO doesn't and in use it's hitting more like 85% or higher.

You made a statement. I refuted it. Why move the goalposts?

You’re the one that said anything over 65% accuracy and a level 4 chromatic orb would outperform fireball. I just showed that to be untrue.

 

[Steampunkette]

More sincerely:

Fireball is the better spell.

Yes. If you can absolutely max out accuracy to fling Chromatic Orb and manage to bounce it a few times it will deal more damage than a Fireball does to a maximum of 6 targets. But there's two huge caveats, there:

1) There's no guarantee it will deal -any- damage. You miss the first shot, you wasted the spell slot. You miss the second, you're SoL on 3 through 6.
2) Any time spent buffing your accuracy to be able to pull it off is time those six targets have to make attacks, move for cover, or otherwise act to ruin your day.

Meanwhile:
1) Fireball has no prep time. You just do it.
2) Fireball can't miss. It can deal half damage if they save, but at least you're guaranteed to hit every NPC "Over There" immediately. Possibly taking some number of them out of the fight in one shot.

Yes. The damage type is unfavorable. But if we're talking about Sorcerers, just change the damage type. 1 sorcery point is less expensive at level 12 than 6 enemy actions.

Also... It can hit more than six. And if your Narrator is like me, they're aware of whether or not you grabbed AoE and eager to add tons of little nothing monsters for you to blow up en-masse to show off your powerful magic while also still hitting the BBEG or one of their Lieutenants or something so you're not "Wasting" your turn taking out a mass of NPCs that can't reasonably hurt you or your party members.

So put your d20 into dice jail and make the Narrator roll 12 saving throws in a row, instead!

(Unless your Narrator uses "Players Roll Everything" and has their Saves as 12+Prof+Stat and makes you roll your D20s, in which case let them rain across the battlefield like it's Meteor Swarm you absolute legend!)

Edit You can also spend 2 Sorcery Points for Heighten Spell giving anyone making a save against that Fireball have Disadvantage if they're -not- Fire-Resistant. Which is -particularly- useful for Fireball and other "Indiscriminate AoE" spells. Though if you -have- to keep your party alive, 1 point for Careful Spell negates the "Indiscriminate" part... spoilsport.

 

[Zardnaar]

More sincerely:

Fireball is the better spell.

Yes. If you can absolutely max out accuracy to fling Chromatic Orb and manage to bounce it a few times it will deal more damage than a Fireball does to a maximum of 6 targets. But there's two huge caveats, there:

1) There's no guarantee it will deal -any- damage. You miss the first shot, you wasted the spell slot. You miss the second, you're SoL on 3 through 6.
2) Any time spent buffing your accuracy to be able to pull it off is time those six targets have to make attacks, move for cover, or otherwise act to ruin your day.

Meanwhile:
1) Fireball has no prep time. You just do it.
2) Fireball can't miss. It can deal half damage if they save, but at least you're guaranteed to hit every NPC "Over There" immediately. Possibly taking some number of them out of the fight in one shot.

Yes. The damage type is unfavorable. But if we're talking about Sorcerers, just change the damage type. 1 sorcery point is less expensive at level 12 than 6 enemy actions.

Also... It can hit more than six. And if your Narrator is like me, they're aware of whether or not you grabbed AoE and eager to add tons of little nothing monsters for you to blow up en-masse to show off your powerful magic while also still hitting the BBEG or one of their Lieutenants or something so you're not "Wasting" your turn taking out a mass of NPCs that can't reasonably hurt you or your party members.

So put your d20 into dice jail and make the Narrator roll 12 saving throws in a row, instead!

(Unless your Narrator uses "Players Roll Everything" and has their Saves as 12+Prof+Stat and makes you roll your D20s, in which case let them rain across the battlefield like it's Meteor Swarm you absolute legend!)

Edit You can also spend 2 Sorcery Points for Heighten Spell giving anyone making a save against that Fireball have Disadvantage if they're -not- Fire-Resistant. Which is -particularly- useful for Fireball and other "Indiscriminate AoE" spells. Though if you -have- to keep your party alive, 1 point for Careful Spell negates the "Indiscriminate" part... spoilsport.

Seeking spell is 1 sorcerery point.

Innate sorcerery is a bonus action.

 

[Zardnaar]

You made a statement. I refuted it. Why move the goalposts?

You’re the one that said anything over 65% accuracy and a level 4 chromatic orb would outperform fireball. I just showed that to be untrue.

You cherry picked 70%.

I'm generally seeing it used closer to 77.5-85%+.

Theory crafting I'm getting it even higher.

At least for the big ones (your highest level slots).

 

[FrogReaver]

You cherry picked 70%.

I'm generally seeing it used closer to 77.5-85%+.

Theory crafting I'm getting it even higher.

At least for the big ones (your highest level slots).

Is 70% more than 65%? Yes.
Did you say anything over 65%? Yes.

How is it cherry picking when I use your own criteria?

 

[Zardnaar]

Is 70% more than 65%? Yes.
Did you say anything over 65%? Yes.

How is it cherry picking when I use your own criteria?

I also said higher the better.

Brief history a while ago I saw CO compared favorably to chain lightning. Cool made note of it. Someone else crunched the math on the bounce %.

Treantmonk made his sorcerer video and dropped the ball in it comparing a mediocre build to one if the best in the game.

Elsewhere a few of us started crunching numbers. Seeking spell and elven accuracy were mentioned. I haven't seen elven accuracy in action I have seen seeking spell.

And yeah I've been running official adventures often tweaked. Usually add sone critters.

With fire resistance being fairly common and friendly fire an issue I'm seeing CO outperforming fireball. I'm not adjusting the encounters to favor either one. I have seen a one encounter where fireball wrecked house.

I've got a light cleric and lightning sorcerer in same party. I've also seen CO used at level 12 on a warlock and with magic adept adding bless or faerie fire used.

Real use not ENworlds made up numbers. I'm wondering if anyone else is seeing something similar. I've been running up to 3 games a week level 1-12.

 

[Steampunkette]

"Not ENWorld's made up numbers"

'Kay. Are "Real Numbers" exclusively from your anecdotal experience?

Or are you getting numbers from the "Game Design" region of France while we're using "Sparkling Math"?

 

[Zardnaar]

"Not ENWorld's made up numbers"

'Kay. Are "Real Numbers" exclusively from your anecdotal experience?

Or are you getting numbers from the "Game Design" region of France while we're using "Sparkling Math"?

Have you actually used it much?

People are assuming 65% hit chances and 65% saving fails not taking friendly fire and fire resistance into account.

Personally I tend to avoid fire and poison damage. At least to build around.

It's trivial to buff accuracy up around 85% or higher.

Vs high AC opponents ill switch to a save or suck vs CO.

Other interesting thing is does it open up a close enough equivalent to acid/frost.

 

[Steampunkette]

Have you actually used it much?

That's the beautiful thing about math and game design: I don't have to use it much to be able to see what it is capable of. You can do a series of calculations and get average values.

People are assuming 65% hit chances and 65% saving fails not taking friendly fire and fire resistance into account.

1) While fire resistance is plentiful in the MM, it's not actually that plentiful in most games or adventures. (57 out of the 163 Fire resistant and immune enemies are demons or devils, for example, and unless you're adventuring in Hell you're probably not fighting many of those, and that's not counting "Abyssal Chicken" type monsters, just the 'important' ones)

2) Friendly Fire is a situational penalty that can be erased with 1 sorcery point. And even if you choose not to spend it, it doesn't negate the damage output of the spell, which is the point of comparison.

3) 65% hit chance is pretty decent. It's not insanely good or anything, but it's a reasonable baseline to work off of. Is it possible to get another +4 to attack? Sure. Bardic Inspiration, for example, or rolling well on Bless. But most of those benefits apply to one attack or require you to roll to see how much benefit you get on each attack, making them swingy.

And while you'd be cool applying Bardic Inspiration or Advantage to all attacks against all targets of Chromatic Orb if the first one has Advantage or Bardic Inspiration... I sure as hell wouldn't.

Personally I tend to avoid fire and poison damage. At least to build around.

Fair. That's your prerogative. Personally I make a monoclass character with minimal, or zero, feats and don't bother breaking out the spreadsheets to try and figure out the most optimal build, instead coming up with a concept and running with it, even if it's suboptimal. We all do things our own ways.

It's trivial to buff accuracy up around 85% or higher.

Hitting allies in an AoE they know I intend to use on my first turn is just as trivial. They decided to get into the blast radius and can make their saves like everyone else!

Of course the rounds spent gaining the 85% buff and the rounds spent Healing the party balance out, right?

Vs high AC opponents ill switch to a save or suck vs CO.

Personally I like stuff with half damage failstates rather than save or suck. They're more fun for everyone involved.

No one likes getting locked out of combat because they keep rolling crappy saves, after all. Even the Narrator.

Other interesting thing is does it open up a close enough equivalent to acid/frost.

S'truth. Of course you could also talk to your DM about trading out the Fire for Acid Damage during downtime as a "Research" thing to change the spell's damage type always. Then you're only looking at 62 Immune/Resistant enemies (well, that -was- 5 years ago, now, there might be more at this point). Though that'll depend on your DM and adventure.

 

[Zardnaar]

That's the beautiful thing about math and game design: I don't have to use it much to be able to see what it is capable of. You can do a series of calculations and get average values.

1) While fire resistance is plentiful in the MM, it's not actually that plentiful in most games or adventures. (57 out of the 163 Fire resistant and immune enemies are demons or devils, for example, and unless you're adventuring in Hell you're probably not fighting many of those, and that's not counting "Abyssal Chicken" type monsters, just the 'important' ones)

2) Friendly Fire is a situational penalty that can be erased with 1 sorcery point. And even if you choose not to spend it, it doesn't negate the damage output of the spell, which is the point of comparison.

3) 65% hit chance is pretty decent. It's not insanely good or anything, but it's a reasonable baseline to work off of. Is it possible to get another +4 to attack? Sure. Bardic Inspiration, for example, or rolling well on Bless. But most of those benefits apply to one attack or require you to roll to see how much benefit you get on each attack, making them swingy.

And while you'd be cool applying Bardic Inspiration or Advantage to all attacks against all targets of Chromatic Orb if the first one has Advantage or Bardic Inspiration... I sure as hell wouldn't.

Fair. That's your prerogative. Personally I make a monoclass character with minimal, or zero, feats and don't bother breaking out the spreadsheets to try and figure out the most optimal build, instead coming up with a concept and running with it, even if it's suboptimal. We all do things our own ways.

Hitting allies in an AoE they know I intend to use on my first turn is just as trivial. They decided to get into the blast radius and can make their saves like everyone else!

Of course the rounds spent gaining the 85% buff and the rounds spent Healing the party balance out, right?

Personally I like stuff with half damage failstates rather than save or suck. They're more fun for everyone involved.

No one likes getting locked out of combat because they keep rolling crappy saves, after all. Even the Narrator.

S'truth. Of course you could also talk to your DM about trading out the Fire for Acid Damage during downtime as a "Research" thing to change the spell's damage type always. Then you're only looking at 62 Immune/Resistant enemies (well, that -was- 5 years ago, now, there might be more at this point). Though that'll depend on your DM and adventure.

Fireballing the party without consent more than once would get you booted from the game. No pvp or jerks session 0. I've seen people get fairly upset over deliberate friendly fire fireballs.

Yes they fireball the party occasionally but they ask first.

Hence why I'm saying CO is performing well.

The ideal situation for a fireball is less common than ideal CO.

85% hit chance is a bonus action. Or 1 Sorcery point. Using ENworlds 65%. It's a trivial cost.

Most of the rest it's taking advantage of common situations. Eg bless, faerie fire, blindness, paralysis. Twin spells cheaper so seeing get used more on those type of spells vs twinned haste.