D&D (2024) Fireball/Lightning Bolt vs Chromatic Orb?

[ezo]

I think it's a decent option without any of the above. With that specific build it became an exceptional option.

Like most of 5E, the default uses of spells, features, etc. is decent and with a bit of "support" can get much better. CO is like that.

Spells like fireball, however, are better out of the gate. In this case, FB compared to CO, FB has better range, better damage, greater target potential, negligible material component, goes around corners, etc. While CO has better damage options, can be gained sooner (1st-level), doesn't have the issue of friendly fire, and can potentially at higher levels target creatures which are more spread out.

I agree, CO is decent as is. I think it is a great option for any combat-caster for when something like fire resistance, friendly-fire, or burning every thing flammable in the AoE makes FB a bad decision.

 

[mellored]

If you need that much to make a spell a good option, odds are under "normal circumstances" it isn't a great spell.

Name a better 1st or 2nd level damage spell?
(Fireball is better at 3rd).

 

[ezo]

Name a better 1st or 2nd level damage spell?
(Fireball is better at 3rd).

Let's not shift goalposts, shall we?

(To be fair, we can if you want... I just don't think you'll like the results. )

EDIT: I will THANK YOU though because this made me realize a mistake I had in my spreadsheet! I'll have to post an updated version later--it is more favorable for CO I believe, but I will have to run the numbers later.

 

[ezo]

UPDATE vs. FIREBALL

I've updated my original calculation post (#41) with this new table.

 

[mellored]

UPDATE vs. FIREBALL

View attachment 396155

The only time CO cast at 3rd-level is superior to Fireball (assuming 65% fail) given an equal number of viable targets is when there is just a single target and your attack success is 95%.

I've updated my original calculation post (#41) with this new table.

You forgot crits.

But yea, since Fireball do more damage to a single target (the vast majority of the time), then it will do more damage to multiple creatures.

 

[ezo]

You forgot crits.

Nope. I always include crits. That is why if you crit, at 10d8, it always bounces...

That isn't to say there might not be an formula error or something, so I always encourage other to double-check to see if we get similar results.

What I did in post #41 was calculated damage based on attack success, but then also attack success indicated number of expected targets... so in essense it was used twice.

But yea, since Fireball do more damage to a single target (the vast majority of the time), then it will do more damage to multiple creatures.

Yep. As I've posted repeatedly at this point, there are lots of times when CO might be better strategically, but raw damage it can't hold up vs. fireball. But, as we know, fireball as a legacy spell is overpowered for level 3 already.

 

[FrogReaver]

Nope. I always include crits. That is why if you crit, at 10d8, it always bounces...

That isn't to say there might not be an formula error or something, so I always encourage other to double-check to see if we get similar results.

What I did in post #41 was calculated damage based on attack success, but then also attack success indicated number of expected targets... so in essense it was used twice.


Yep. As I've posted repeatedly at this point, there are lots of times when CO might be better strategically, but raw damage it can't hold up vs. fireball. But, as we know, fireball as a legacy spell is overpowered for level 3 already.

I’ll verify your results with at some point.

 

[FrogReaver]

@ezo

Your new 95% single target should be 22.5. The other single target values seem correct.

 

[Sorinth]

UPDATE vs. FIREBALL

View attachment 396155

The only time CO cast at 3rd-level is superior to Fireball (assuming 65% fail) given an equal number of viable targets is when there is just a single target and your attack success is 95%.

I've updated my original calculation post (#41) with this new table.

Worth noting that for spread out enemies CO is probably going to be able to get more targets then fireball will. Being able to jump 30ft after every target could mean that the 1st and 4th target are 90ft away from each other as an example.

We would probably have to see how often those situations come up in actual play. It's a shame the wording of Distant spell metamagic wouldn't effect the bounce ranges, because that would make things way more interesting in that regard.

 

[Steampunkette]

Name a better 1st or 2nd level damage spell?
(Fireball is better at 3rd).

Flaming Sphere.

No. I'm not joking. Flaming Sphere is a better spell at 2nd level.

1) It damages all creatures who end their turn near it.
2) Any creature that move through it take damage.
3) You can move it as a bonus action and slam it into people to deal damage.
4) It lasts up to 10 minutes on concentration, allowing you to repeat the damage each turn.
5) Because you use a bonus action to move it, you can still cast spells with your action.

At 2nd level, Chromatic Orb can hit for 4d8, then get doubles, and hit again for 4d8 on a second target. If you're fighting 1 enemy and get a crit you get 8d8 as your biggest possible damage. If you do two targets and crit both, your maximum damage is 16d8!!!

But you can also miss, and waste your entire turn. Or crit one and miss the other.

At 2nd level, against a single enemy in 3-round combat, the most damage a single casting of Flaming Sphere can do is 12d6. Wherein you hit the bad guy with the ball on your turn, every turn, and they don't move away from it.

"But that'll never happen!"

Granted, this requires either an incredibly foolish enemy or someone holding them in the sphere... Or, y'know, enemies that can't move... But even if they -can- move you can bonus-action attack them 3 times and deal 6d6 (21 average, 36 max) which is better than 4d8 (18 average, 32 max). While also casting cantrips for another d8 or d6 every round.

So best case scenario for Chromatic Orb on a single target is 8d8 (crit) and best case scenario on Flaming Sphere is 12d6. But both have a "Step Down" level of 4d8 and 6d6. And both have a fail level of 0 and 6d6/2 (assuming they make all their saves). Flaming Sphere does have another level of fail state, of course: 2d6/2 and then lose concentration, in which your target makes their save and then slaps you hard enough to break concentration.

However in AoE situations the "Best Case" for Flaming Sphere adds 6d6 as another target gormlessly stands in the fire like a World of Warcraft raider.

The best use of a Flaming Sphere in multi-target situations is always going to be one of two situations:

1) Hodor. Put the Flaming Sphere in a doorway or narrow corridor enemies must move through to reach you. Either they all take damage moving through it as you bounce it off their faces, or your spell bypasses the encounter and is an "I Win" button.
2) Burning Witches. Entangle or another effect to hold enemies in place, Flaming Sphere placed near several. This also works with a couple friends with the Sentinel feat, the Barbarian who likes to turn into Macho Man Randy Savage and grapple things while raging, or, y'know. Pit traps and the like.

Also, -technically- none of that is the "Best Case Scenario" for Flaming Sphere. The best case scenario is maintaining concentration for the full 10 minutes and doing various "Best Case" and "Fail State" and "Mediocre Existence" stuff with it over the course of a series of fights. Possibly in a closed environment with narrow corridors.

Some kind of dungeon-like atmosphere would be best. But I wouldn't know where you might find -that-...