D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[Ashrym]

Reliable talent, and expertise are great. But no matter how high you roll, you can only ever achieve what an ability check can achieve.

But I can do it sooooo many times. It's not like a wizard casting charm person can achieve more with it than that same ability check.

My argument is I can do a lot still and do it more often than spell slots can keep up. Spell slots can sometimes do more and bigger things on that limited scope. I don't mind giving up damage to KO people pretty much at will either, tbh.

Will I be able to cast polymorph? Nope, sure won't. But I'm still good IME.

Unless they would of spent 12+ hours traveling.
Then you can just cast teleport and catch up.

Around here we call that "wandering experience points". ;-)

At this point you're risking teleportation mishap and spending a lot of high level spell slots to avoid engaging in the travel and gameplay that I would get to play and experience when it comes to travel. Not really a winning argument IMO.

That's assuming I'm spending my available time your wizard, other wizard, and rogue wouldn't have because their spending that time also spending a lot of money on something that will be even more costly in the long run.

Then when (if) they do arrive they're down several high level spell slots for the fighting.

Or teleport to a cold climate, make a simulacrum, and teleport back.

That's 3 7th level spell slots and the possibility of hourly checks against exhaustion levels.

Most campaigns have some downtime. If not, then you basically banned the spell.

Simulacrum seems like a good use for downtime. It's not the only use for downtime and that downtime is also something martials can use. At the levels we're discussing a fighter, for example, can use the small standing army from his war room benefits to attack a despotic ruler in his castle and overthrow the local ruling class.

The war room feature in a bastion isn't something for which spellcasters (other than dance bards) qualify. How much damage does 10 veteran warriors and 1000 guards do?

Funny thing is the dance bard can have both the simulacrum and the standing army.

 

[Zardnaar]

Looks like no one's really come up with anything solid.

I know they can do it in a white room at higher level with CME at 65% hit chance. Simulacrum isn't needed.

More interested when the best build can do it (ball park figures are fine) and more typical build.

If the spell caster can't (except higher level) the answer is no.

 

[ECMO3]

double post

 

[Zardnaar]

In play I think the Paladin would be the highest damage dealing class at more levels than any other single class character, and if you reread what you quoted up there you will notice I said that "The highest damage casters are Paladins ...."

Berzerker barbarian I think is it nayve alternating with fighter builds.

Some paladin builds dip into top 3 at higher levels.

In a white room of course though.

 

[mellored]

mass suggestion spell as written is busted anyway, with or without concentration.

True.
Needs more of a nerf.

 

[ECMO3]

Even at high levels, I don't like factoring upcast CME into damage calculations: feels too obviously broken.
At those levels its mostly unnecessary.

If you are talking about the damage dealt (i.e. not overkill or damage after all the enemies are dead) it is going to be difficult or impossible to actually do this mathematically because there are too many variables. You would need to develop a ruleset based on assumptions - number of rounds of combat, chance of losing concentration, how many foes, how many hit points each foe has....

Depending on these assumptions CME will either be terrible compared to other options or awesome compared to other options. This makes it highly situational.

What I can say definitively in terms of actual play through the course of the game that the 18th level Wizard we have in our party, who also has CME, is NOT the highest damage dealer in the party in terms of the amount of damage taken by the enemy and has not been the best at any level so far (we did not play level 1 and have not played 19 or 20). At present (level 18), the Wizard is 4 out of 5 among all characters and 2 out of 3 when it comes to single class characters. He is behind the Fighter, the Valor Bard/Paladin/Warlock and the Arcane Trickster/Fey Warlock/Bard/Paladin. He is ahead of the Cleric. He is not even close to the top three (and TBH the Bard and Rogue are not close to the Fighter).

At lower levels perhaps. Are these "martials" casting spells to achieve their high damage?

if you reread what you quoted from me up there you will note I said that "The highest damage casters are Paladins ...."

In play, looking at all 20 levels, I think the Paladin would be the highest damage dealing caster at more levels than any other single class caster. I am pretty confident they will deliver the most damage in play of the caster classes (Ranger, Bard, Warlock, Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Paladin) at the largest number of levels from 1-20.

I am not as confident they would be better than the top non-caster for the largest number of levels.

 

[CleverNickName]

When I was playing a Hexblade warlock, I don't remember feeling like my damage output was lacking. Most of the time, I felt like I was dealing just as much damage as the other members of the party with my Eldritch Blast and its associated Invocations. (I grabbed Devil's Sight and Agonizing Blast at 2nd level, then kept adding on from there.)

1st level: eldritch blast for 1d10 force damage.
2nd level: eldritch blast for 1d10+Cha force damage.
5th level: as above, but two attacks.
11th level: as above, but three attacks.
17th level: as above, but four attacks.

And this doesn't account for things like my rod of the pact keeper that I found, or my other invocations that let me push or pull my targets around, or my Hex spell that added a little extra damage, or my Darkness spell letting me shoot with advantage, or any of my other tricks. This is just my dude shooting EB.

When I played a Wizard, I went with the School of Abjuration. I wasn't interested in damage output; my role in the party was debuff and protection: I would counter or dispell any incoming attack magic, block attacks with Shield, keep the barbarian Hasted, and keep my battery of temporary hit points fully charged. I think the most devastating attack I could ever do at low-to-mid levels was an upcast Magic Missile?

So YMMV, I guess, depending on the type of "caster" you are going for.

 

[Zardnaar]

When I was playing a Hexblade warlock, I don't remember feeling like my damage output was lacking. Most of the time, I felt like I was dealing just as much damage as the other members of the party with my Eldritch Blast and its associated Invocations. (I grabbed Devil's Sight and Agonizing Blast at 2nd level, then kept adding on from there.)

1st level: eldritch blast for 1d10 force damage.
2nd level: eldritch blast for 1d10+Cha force damage.
5th level: as above, but two attacks.
11th level: as above, but three attacks.
17th level: as above, but four attacks.

And this doesn't account for things like my rod of the pact keeper that I found, or my other invocations that let me push or pull my targets around, or my Hex spell that added a little extra damage, or my Darkness spell letting me shoot with advantage, or any of my other tricks. This is just my dude shooting EB.

When I played a Wizard, I went with the School of Abjuration. I wasn't interested in damage output; my role in the party was debuff and protection: I would counter or dispell any incoming attack magic, block attacks with Shield, keep the barbarian Hasted, and keep my battery of temporary hit points fully charged. I think the most devastating attack I could ever do at low-to-mid levels was an upcast Magic Missile?

So YMMV, I guess, depending on the type of "caster" you are going for.

Warlocks provably the best tier 2 for what you outlined and I mentioned level 3 fiendpact.

Definitely competive lower levels.

Rewatching treantmonks video he assumed.

4 convats a day
4 rounds
1 shot rest.

My games probably 3-5, 3 rounds 2 short rests (1 more prayer of healing). Dungeon hack can get 6+.

Innate sorcerery is every combat level 7+ iirc so advantage to hit on every sorcerous burst, Chromatic Orb and scorching ray.

I'm adding hex into the mix that he missed.

 

[mellored]

That's 3 7th level spell slots and the possibility of hourly checks against exhaustion levels.

Pretty sure you can find a place with snow and not get exhausted in 12 hours. You don't even need magic for that.

Also you (or a friend) can make Tiny Hut or a Masion to stay warm.

And yea, your not casting it without time anyways. Not until you get Wish.

 

[Zardnaar]

Pretty sure you can find a place with snow and not get exhausted in 12 hours. You don't even need magic for that.

Also you (or a friend) can make Tiny Hut or a Masion to stay warm.

And yea, your not casting it without time anyways. Not until you get Wish.

It's also irrelevant. Casters at high level at least the best ones can beat martials without it using CME.

Even the martial builds are about abusing CME in white rooms.

Already know the answer hence consistently.