D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[Ashrym]

Not really great optimization. Lots of adventures have few-to-no traps, and they can generally be handled by anyone with a combination of Investigation, Perception, and decent Dex. Reliable Talent and possible thieves' tools Expertise is nice, but not remotely necessary. Wildshape, Knock, and Fly can also handle a lot of traversal and entrance issues.

Except lots of adventures do have many traps and per your criteria I don't know if this one does or doesn't. I've been in adventures that require opening a lot of locks too. I don't care if the wizard in the B time might have knock prepped when he needs to cast it 10 times alerting everything around us the first 4 times when he runs out of those spell slots.

It's the lack of knowledge that leans me towards the rogue in the first place. Reliable and consistent.

Team B has double fireballs. They'll be fine.

Fireballs are terrible damage against CR2 monsters let alone what might be encountered in a 10th level adventure. Using 5 fireballs to kill 2 driders isn't helping your argument.

Do you really think team B has the spell slots to carry through this 10th level dungeon? Especially claiming fireball and then running into fire resistant opponents?

Of course they can prepare. Most adventures aren't on a timer. You spend the first day scouting, getting the lay of the land, and then rest and prepare spells.

That's the opposite of going into a blind dungeon. Seems like you're backtracking now. I doubt it would matter in the dungeon I just gave as an example, though.

Even without prepping, a 10th level cleric has 24 spells prepped, a druid and wizard have at least 15 each? Their basic adventuring prep will cover 95+% of situations that might arise.

Who cares how many spells are prepared? They can't cast all of them with 15 spell slots especially if they're casting knock repeatedly and using several spells every encounter and using spells to bypass other non-combat encounters.

They aren't ending encounters with a single spell.

 

[TwoSix]

That's the opposite of going into a blind dungeon. Seems like you're backtracking now. I doubt it would matter in the dungeon I just gave as an example, though.

I never said blind dungeon. I never even said “dungeon”. I said adventure.

And even if the adventure is a dungeon crawl, nothing stopping the wizard from using arcane eye to scout the first few rooms.

Who cares how many spells are prepared? They can't cast all of them with 15 spell slots especially if they're casting knock repeatedly and using several spells every encounter and using spells to bypass other non-combat encounters.

I mean, I do, since my whole point is that versatility trumps specialization, and number of prepared spells is a measure of versatility.

And they don’t have 15 spell slots; there’s 4 casters, so there’s 60. Plus recharge class abilities.

A dungeon like the one above would probably take 4-5 long rests to clear, so that’s 240-300.

 

[Ashrym]

Pretty sure you can find a place with snow and not get exhausted in 12 hours. You don't even need magic for that.

You don't know the temperature and weather by teleporting in. That's going to take more spells. If it's below 0F that's a saving throw every hour. Between not knowing the temp before teleporting in and possible teleportation to the wrong location via error this is a risk.

Also you (or a friend) can make Tiny Hut or a Masion to stay warm.

Mansion is also a 7th level spell. We seem to be spending those like there isn't a limit on slots. ;-)

Tiny hut has an 8hr duration which would require breaking concentration another spell to recast. May as well have continued with control weather instead of teleporting to a new location.

And yea, your not casting it without time anyways. Not until you get Wish.

I think time and cost are adequate controls and that's why simulacrum is fun but not too too much. Wish is definitely a lot. Every bard, sorcerer, and wizard should be aware of that by now.

 

[ECMO3]

They aren't ending encounters with a single spell.

Fear can end an encounter pretty effectively.

 

[ECMO3]

A dungeon like the one above would probably take 4-5 long rests to clear, so that’s 240-300.

Doing a long rest in a dungeon is generally sketch.

We recently finished a reboot of Temple of Elemental Evil. It was the 1E campaign updated with modern 5E and MCDM monsters. In the temple proper we had about 4 maps a little smaller than the one above and then 4 elemental nodes each about a third of the one above. We got probably 6 or 7 long rests total, not 4 or 5 on a single map of that size.

We followed that adventure with a reboot of Scourge of the slavelords, we completed the first dungeon, which was 2 maps about half that size each, without a single long rest.

 

[Ashrym]

I never said blind dungeon.

You definitely said "blindly".

I never even said “dungeon”. I said adventure.

Dungeons are part of the adventure.

And even if the adventure is a dungeon crawl, nothing stopping the wizard from using arcane eye to scout the first few rooms.

It doesn't have to be a dungeon crawl. A similar experience in a forest with that many areas can go exactly the same. It's only really esthetically different.

You should start counting you spell slots used though. Arcane eye is another one that's a high level resource for this group. Arcane eye is one of my favorite spells, but it's movement rate slows down the party and digs into durations and it costs concentration so repeatedly using it with other spells can eat spell slots faster if a person isn't careful.

My party with the rogue doesn't need to spend the resource to carefully scout.

I mean, I do, since my whole point is that versatility trumps specialization, and number of prepared spells is a measure of versatility.

So that versatility gets bottlenecked by running out of spell slots. It's not possible to cast 25 spells on a cleric with 15 spell slots. It's possible to cast 15 of them, and those are still limited by the spell levels themselves. They have 2 5th level spells.

The a lot of that versatility cannot be applied as the number of spell slots dwindle.

And they don’t have 15 spell slots; there’s 4 casters, so there’s 60. Plus recharge class abilities.

Yes, and each one of those casters relies on those spell slots. I didn't miscount. 2 CR 6 monsters in one fight is going to cost that party about 2 of those spell slots each, which is over 13% of the total. That's good for about 7 or 8 combats if they aren't using any slots outside of combat, and you just pointed out arcane eye as one gone.

If they're using about 1/3 of their spell slots out of combat then they're running out of slots 6 combats in before getting to the BBEG.

The wizard can recharge 5 levels worth of low level slots.

A dungeon like the one above would probably take 4-5 long rests to clear, so that’s 240-300.

Except they cannot leave or rest in the dungeon. This particular dungeon also has many mages in it capable of dispelling magic or detecting them, wandering monsters are a thing...

The idea that casters can simply leave and come back is part of the problem. That's not guaranteed and IME not even typical. Adventures are paced however they're pace, not how PC's pace them based on their limited resources.

 

[Ashrym]

Fear can end an encounter pretty effectively.

A lot of the creatures in that dungeon are immune and those creatures who aren't can come back. There are several mages, constructs, and devils in that one.

A party cannot clear the dungeon on fear alone.

 

[ECMO3]

A lot of the creatures in that dungeon are immune and those creatures who aren't can come back. There are several mages, constructs, and devils in that one.

A party cannot clear the dungeon on fear alone.

I'm not saying it can clear the dungeon, but it can clear a room.

 

[TwoSix]

Dungeons are part of the adventure.

But not all adventures have dungeons.

Except they cannot leave or rest in the dungeon. This particular dungeon also has many mages in it capable of dispelling magic or detecting them, wandering monsters are a thing...

The idea that casters can simply leave and come back is part of the problem. That's not guaranteed and IME not even typical. Adventures are paced however they're pace, not how PC's pace them based on their limited resources.

Yea, this is probably the root of our disagreement; I strongly disagree with the above statement. Outside of OSR type games, my experience is that the group is paced around the casters; if they're low on spells after 2 fights, we stop and rest.

 

[Ashrym]

I'm not saying it can clear the dungeon, but it can clear a room.

That's not entirely reliable given some opponents are immune, and in that dungeon the mages will save about a third of the time. We can't assume spells are successful either.