D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[mellored]

I haven't mined it yet either. Video I watched indicated the moon Druid might be balanced with CME. They can't use it at range as well and I don't think the best forms have more than two attacks.

Land Druid doesn't get scorching ray.

CME is balanced if your only making 2 attacks per turn. But you can make 15 with a little help (haste).

Which is why I lean towards adding "once per turn" to it. And maybe boost the die size to d12.

Or heck, "twice per turn."

 

[Zardnaar]

I mean, I literally just showed a build of Wizard that is at least as tanky as the tankiest "martial" in the game (Wild Heart Barbarian choosing Bear rage).

As part of that, I did not examine the DPR at all, just the defense spells. Using melee cantrips until 6, and then mixing regular attacks and cantrips for Big DPS, seems to be the thing to do, since that gives you cantrip-scaling damage plus a regular melee attack. Or if all you need to do is tank, one melee attack + Blade Ward for effectively +1d4 AC against all attacks (not just melee, nor weapon! "Whenever a creature makes an attack roll against you"), meaning if you go pure defensive, you at minimum match or exceed someone with full plate + shield (13 mage armor + 3 dex + 3 int + 1 minimum roll for Blade Ward = 20 AC).


There is an important distinction to make here.

I'm not saying a Wizard (or other caster) can't get benefit from doing this. They can.

I'm not saying a Wizard (or other caster) can't optimize for teamwork effect. They can.

What I'm saying is, it is more efficient to use the action economy to directly end things rather than to set things up to be ended. On average, your performance will be better if you are directly ending fights (or functionally doing so, "Save or Suck" kind of thing), rather than indirectly helping someone else do a little bit better at pushing things closer to the end.

It's not competing with barbarian at tanking.

If the martials aren't around how would they kill stuff?

Already know about CME shenanigans and it's before simulacrum matters. Wizard get CME and scorching ray, sorcerers don't get CME but can boost accuracy and transmute Scorching Ray. CME not really a big problem until it starts getting upcast.

 

[mellored]

It's not competing with barbarian at tanking.

If the martials aren't around how would they kill stuff?

Fly + firebolt.

Or if your on a team, Forcecage + damage zone.

 

[FrogReaver]

Well point of thus thread is can a wizard do that? Haven't seen any builds yet where a wizard can. At least at levels that matter.

They can set up a situation where the fighter kills stuff faster surr. Teamwork wizard damage isn't high enough.
Hex+Scorching ray and situational boom spells is how to do that. Feel free to post more damage than that.

Evoker Wizard Firebolt Tier 2: +8.8 DPR

Summon Fey Level 3 Slot: +10.9 DPR
Summon Fey Level 4 Slot: +20.2 DPR
Summon Fey Level 5 Slot: +21.6 DPR

Animate Dead Level 3 slot (maintaining 4 skeleton archers after initial creation): +13 DPR

I think either of these beat out the hex+scorching ray combo you mention in tier 2, unless we are talking Nova Damage, but I don't think that's the case.

 

[Zardnaar]

Evoker Wizard Firebolt Tier 2: +8.8 DPR

Summon Fey Level 3 Slot: +10.9 DPR
Summon Fey Level 4 Slot: +20.2 DPR
Summon Fey Level 5 Slot: +21.6 DPR

Animate Dead Level 3 slot (maintaining 4 skeleton archers after initial creation): +13 DPR

I think either of these beat out the hex+scorching ray combo you mention in tier 2, unless we are talking Nova Damage, but I don't think that's the case.

Summon spells maybe on paper. They require concentration and can be killed.

Not salty about my summon celestial spell on CoS failing hard at all.

Some videos did crunch them put and I think the answer was it depends.

 

[ECMO3]

CME not really a big problem until it starts getting upcast.

We are at 18th level in one 2024 campaign I am playing and it has not been a problem at all.

TBH I would say it is less effective than Magic Missile most of the time.

 

[ECMO3]

That's not entirely reliable given some opponents are immune, and in that dungeon the mages will save about a third of the time. We can't assume spells are successful either.

No but what I said was Fear can end an encounter, and it can. Not all encounters, and some that it can end it can't end reliably, but others it can do it reliably.

It is somewhat situational but the power and effect of that spell is so high that it is in play the best 3rd level spell I have seen. Again some encounters it is useless, some encounters it just ok, but there are other encounters where a level 5 party will beat a CR 15 enemy with a single spell, and no other spell offers that sort of payout at this level.

 

[FrogReaver]

No but what I said was Fear can end an encounter, and it can. Not all encounters, and some that it can end it can't end reliably, but others it can do it reliably.

It also doesn't hurt that you've decided to interpret Fear spell in a way that hugely buffs it.

I might be wrong, but I think most play it that when a creature is cornered that it doesn't use it's action for dashing. I know for sure that's how I play it.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It's not competing with barbarian at tanking.

How is it not? I showed that you could functionally double or more your total HP, while having (with Blade Ward) 20-23 AC.

If the martials aren't around how would they kill stuff?

See post #93. Also, things like weapon attack cantrips, chromatic orb (3d8 flexible-type single-target damage with a 1st level spell, Wizard/Sorcerer), ice knife (slightly worse, but AoE, and available to Druids), burning hands (same as chromatic orb but fixed-type and AoE), guiding bolt (Cleric, Radiant, also acts as a self-buff in the right conditions). For 2nd level spells, you've already mentioned scorching ray, and I got lots of good use out of flaming sphere. Heat metal is conditional but powerful when it applies ("cook & book"). Cleric's spiritual weapon basically lets you conjure up a pre-5th level Fighter for free.

There are options. Not all of them will work with the uber-tank Bladesinger build I mentioned, so don't interpret this as blending all of those things together. Just saying, it's not like casters are somehow totally beholden to martial characters to do damage...especially at levels 1-4, when nobody has Extra Attack yet.

 

[FrogReaver]

Summon spells maybe on paper. They require concentration and can be killed.

Not salty about my summon celestial spell on CoS failing hard at all.

Some videos did crunch them put and I think the answer was it depends.

The damage difference is huge. Even if they die, they likely outdamaged your hex+scorching ray (for a wizard, since that's what we are explicitly talking about). *Hex can lose concentration as well.