D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[EzekielRaiden]

PS we revised "healing surges" to "heroic surges" even while we were playing 4e. So I am all good with name changes.

That's all good and fine, but it does mean "compatibility" is being used only in a pretty loose sense, wouldn't you agree?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Personally I think clerics should be the core simple caster class. I don't think they should have spells at all. Probably just different ways to "Channel Divinity."

It's an option, but I was expecting folks to think a Harry Potter style spellcaster for simplicity. But perhaps my "Mage" concept could actually integrate a religious approach to spellcasting as a subclass? 5.5e presents subclasses in kinda sorta matched pairs, so one bent towards gods and healing, and another bent towards devils or demons and blasting, could be quite appropriate. Then you could have the other two being mystical (more utility, less offensive oomph) vs mighty (the aforementioned attacker subclass with EA at level 6).

This is actually shaping up surprisingly well. I might need to take a crack at actually designing something here soon...

 

[EzekielRaiden]

4E fighter basically sucked and was pigeon holed into being a defender. It was a better defender than a fighter.

[Citation needed]

Fighter was consistently the top favorite defender, and only challenged for favorite class in general by, you guessed it, Warlord.

 

[Lord Twig]

I don't really see how the game is made better by having fireballs that are terrifying in this fashion, but not having relentless warriors who are terrifying in a similar way.

It is better because relentless warriors are terrifying in a different way. Having different classes terrifying in the same way makes the game less interesting in my opinion.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

As I said above, WotC believes putting limitations on what will lead to lower sales. Maybe they're right. In any case, I believe it would make for a very different game, and players don't like they're PCs being nerfed.

So then we're left with:

1. Martial players were nerfed in the past, and cannot be buffed because doing so would make them "superheroes" or "wuxia" and thus unacceptable
2. Spellcasters never get any net nerfs, only buffs or side-grades, because that's what caster fans are used to and we cannot ever upset them

So...you're saying the quiet part out loud. Martials have to stay weak relative to spellcasters because buffing them would upset the people who like being overpowered as spellcasters.

I don't think this is a good thing in the least. It's literally "it would upset too many people to fix this, so we won't, even though it's a problem and has been one for decades (other than during 4e)." Because that's such a great and positive message. Martial fans don't matter as much as caster fans matter. Wonderful, just wonderful.

 

[Zardnaar]

[Citation needed]

Fighter was consistently the top favorite defender, and only challenged for favorite class in general by, you guessed it, Warlord.

It's an opinion. Best debuff is death 2E fighter was better at it than 4E one.

 

[Zardnaar]

So then we're left with:

1. Martial players were nerfed in the past, and cannot be buffed because doing so would make them "superheroes" or "wuxia" and thus unacceptable
2. Spellcasters never get any net nerfs, only buffs or side-grades, because that's what caster fans are used to and we cannot ever upset them

So...you're saying the quiet part out loud. Martials have to stay weak relative to spellcasters because buffing them would upset the people who like being overpowered as spellcasters.

I don't think this is a good thing in the least. It's literally "it would upset too many people to fix this, so we won't, even though it's a problem and has been one for decades (other than during 4e)." Because that's such a great and positive message. Martial fans don't matter as much as caster fans matter. Wonderful, just wonderful.

You can buff fighters with better numbers. New champion kinda leans into this but could d be better.

It's very good at fighter stuff at higher level.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So then we're left with:

1. Martial players were nerfed in the past, and cannot be buffed because doing so would make them "superheroes" or "wuxia" and thus unacceptable
2. Spellcasters never get any net nerfs, only buffs or side-grades, because that's what caster fans are used to and we cannot ever upset them

So...you're saying the quiet part out loud. Martials have to stay weak relative to spellcasters because buffing them would upset the people who like being overpowered as spellcasters.

I don't think this is a good thing in the least. It's literally "it would upset too many people to fix this, so we won't, even though it's a problem and has been one for decades (other than during 4e)." Because that's such a great and positive message. Martial fans don't matter as much as caster fans matter. Wonderful, just wonderful.

Hey, it's not what I want, just what I think WotC wants to maintain and increase their profits. I'm just fine with the supernatural martials you're describing (or, if taken to a lesser degree, action movie martials).

 

[Lord Twig]

Considering that rage lets you actually FLY, I'd say it's very, very supernatural. That's the hillarious thing. The notion that a fighter could swing his weapon so hard that he flies is absolutely impossible. But, my guy getting so angry he can literally fly in to a rage (heh) is no problem whatsoever.

Barbarians don't get so angry they can fly. Wild Heart Barbarians can fly when they Rage, but they are descrived like this: "These Barbarians learn magical means to communicate with animals, and their Rage heightens their connection to animals as it fills them with supernatural might."

So right in the description they tell you that it is not mundane. Fighters can also fly, either the Eldritch Knight with a Fly spell or the Psi Warrior using his Psionic Power, both not mundane.

Swingin your weapon so hard that you fly doesn't fit in D&D the way the world is described, but it would fit perfectly in RuneQuest! (Great game. Mythic heroes. Check it out.)

But, I mentioned this earlier about what if you had a caster with a list of 20 spells total for their spells, same as a Battlemaster has only 20 maneuvers. Let's split that up over 9 levels:

1st (4 spells) - Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Shield, Thunderwave
2nd (4 spells) - Alter Self, Invisibility, Knock, Scorching Ray
3rd (3 spells) - Fear, Fly, Fireball
4th (3 spells) - Charm Monster, Stoneskin, Ice Storm
5th (2 spells) - Cloudkill, Telekinesis
6th-9th, 1 spell/level. - Circle of Death, Plane Shift, Earthquake, Meteor Storm

((Note, taken from the 2024 Sorcerer spell list))

Now, there's the benchmarks. That's what a fighter should be able to do, without magic, although a supernatural or whatever you want to call it source is fine. No actual spells. Just using his weapon/spirit/whatever, the fighter or rogue can duplicate THOSE effects. So, instead of needing to be 14th level to fly, our fighter can do it at 5th. Our fighter can slam the ground so hard to cause earthquakes at 15th. So on and so forth.

If we're going to get class parity, this is what needs to happen. Or, we need to drastically reduce what a caster can do. Either way.

Does the Battlemaster also now have a d6 Hit Die and no armor or weapon proficiencies? No Second Wind? No Action Surge? No Extra Attack? Etc. Etc.

It sounds like you are just making the Sorcerer all over again.

 

[Hussar]

Does the Battlemaster also now have a d6 Hit Die and no armor or weapon proficiencies? No Second Wind? No Action Surge? No Extra Attack? Etc. Etc.

It sounds like you are just making the Sorcerer all over again.

2 hp/level is not really the big difference you seem to think it is. Lessee - second wind, AT MOST, grants me 5 more attacks. A 5th level caster can easily make 10 attacks in a single round. Why does a fighter have to wait fifteen levels to be equal to do what a 5th level caster can?

And note, like I said, this example of a caster is the bare minimum of what a caster can do. This is FAR weaker than an actual caster. By miles. But, the notion that a fighter could do what a massively nerfed sorcerer could do is "making them sorcerers" pretty much explains why fighter types cannot EVER be allowed any sort of parity.

Also explains why, in 10 years of 5e D&D, I've still yet to see a single classed fighter beyond, say 5th level. Not once. Always paired up with caster classes. I dunno who is playing all these fighters but it sure isn't the groups that I play with.