D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[ECMO3]

Your group sold items like candy tbf.

Low levels 50gp a pop assuming adds up fast

In some campaigns yes, not in others though.

 

[ECMO3]

well, second wind is self restockable, that makes it valuable.

Potions are restockable too, just on a different schedule than 2nd wind, but they also accumulate over days. There are campaigns you can't get a lot of them in, especially at low level, but speaking in generalities at most levels they are much less valuable than your second wind uses.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Potions are restockable too, just on a different schedule than 2nd wind, but they also accumulate over days. There are campaigns you can't get a lot of them in, especially at low level, but speaking in generalities at most levels they are much less valuable than your second wind uses.

Their value is nonlinear, whereas Second Wind's value is pretty linear.

Up until you're nearly out of potions, you may as well pop them as you need them. When you're down to only a handful, suddenly they're quite precious, especially as (IME) it really is not that easy to acquire them mid-adventure. Between adventures, maybe, if you have a reliable source, but during one? No, not at all, they're extremely rare while you're out and about in a ghost cave or the dark woods or whatever. And since the during-adventure part is where you need them most, their value has a tendency to swing kinda wildly.

Second Wind? You only get one per short rest. If you held onto it before a short rest, you probably didn't need it that badly. If you spent it, well, taking a short rest now gives you another hit.

I'd also say there's a pretty clear difference between "a resource which naturally refills", and "a resource we have to continually sink funds into". Restockable, but not self-restockable, is a world of difference. Acting like they're equivalent is definitely playing fast and loose with the meanings of words.

 

[ECMO3]

Their value is nonlinear, whereas Second Wind's value is pretty linear.

Up until you're nearly out of potions, you may as well pop them as you need them. When you're down to only a handful, suddenly they're quite precious, especially as (IME) it really is not that easy to acquire them mid-adventure. Between adventures, maybe, if you have a reliable source, but during one? No, not at all, they're extremely rare while you're out and about in a ghost cave or the dark woods or whatever. And since the during-adventure part is where you need them most, their value has a tendency to swing kinda wildly.

It is pretty easy. If you can maintain a stock of arrows and bolts for ranged characters, you can maintain a stock of potions of healing.

It is not easy mid-dungeon, but any time you are in a town with adventuring gear for sale you can buy them.

By level 5 or so I am generally leaving town with about 30 potions of healing, more if you have enough gold and a bag of holding or something to carry them in. That is usually plenty to last until the next town I am able to purchase them in.

Second Wind? You only get one per short rest.

At level 1 you start with 2 uses of 2nd wind per day, and replenish one with each short rest and this goes up from there.

The reason second wind is more valuable is there are more things you can do with it. Second Wind can be used to boost skill checks and to let you move as a bonus action, the potions in your backpack can't do that.

So if I have 2+ uses of 2nd wind I am going to use a potion for healing first unless I am positive we are going to short rest immediately after combat. With 1 use available I am not going to use it unless I know we are going to Long Rest.

Also any PC can use a potion as a bonus action on another. So it is not just the potions the fighter has, it is the potions the other members of the party have,.

If you held onto it before a short rest, you probably didn't need it that badly. If you spent it, well, taking a short rest now gives you another hit.

Once you hit level 5 you are using 2nd wind all the time for tactical shift. I mean if you have any left after 2 combats it is usually because you saved/hoarded it because you are worried it will run out.

From level 2-4 experienced players are using it for skill checks, depending on the game those can be very frequent or not frequent.

After level 5, I would say it is less than 10% of the time 2nd wind is used for healing ... occasionally you get healing out of it if you are not at full health, but the reason players use it is to get what is essentially a bonus action disengage+dash and you can't buy a one-time use of that with 50 gold.

 

[Zardnaar]

It is pretty easy. If you can maintain a stock of arrows and bolts for ranged characters, you can maintain a stock of potions of healing.

It is not easy mid-dungeon, but any time you are in a town with adventuring gear for sale you can buy them.

By level 5 or so I am generally leaving town with about 30 potions of healing, more if you have enough gold and a bag of holding or something to carry them in. That is usually plenty to last until the next town I am able to purchase them in.



At level 1 you start with 2 uses of 2nd wind per day, and replenish one with each short rest and this goes up from there.

The reason second wind is more valuable is there are more things you can do with it. Second Wind can be used to boost skill checks and to let you move as a bonus action, the potions in your backpack can't do that.

So if I have 2+ uses of 2nd wind I am going to use a potion for healing first unless I am positive we are going to short rest immediately after combat. With 1 use available I am not going to use it unless I know we are going to Long Rest.

Also any PC can use a potion as a bonus action on another. So it is not just the potions the fighter has, it is the potions the other members of the party have,.



Once you hit level 5 you are using 2nd wind all the time for tactical shift. I mean if you have any left after 2 combats it is usually because you saved/hoarded it because you are worried it will run out.

From level 2-4 experienced players are using it for skill checks, depending on the game those can be very frequent or not frequent.

After level 5, I would say it is less than 10% of the time 2nd wind is used for healing ... occasionally you get healing out of it if you are not at full health, but the reason players use it is to get what is essentially a bonus action disengage+dash and you can't buy a one-time use of that with 50 gold.

Think you guys have more loot and gold than I hand out.

I sell 1d6 potions of healing at vendors and uncommon items. You seem to do whatever you like in unlimited numbers.

Newer players generally though and we don't healing much with spells. Emergency use only.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It is pretty easy. If you can maintain a stock of arrows and bolts for ranged characters, you can maintain a stock of potions of healing.

Er...no, you can't guarantee that.

Almost anyone can make generally usable arrows. It's a much bigger deal to find someone who can make healing potions.

The rules themselves even contradict this. Under the rules for Treasure, subsection Magic Item Values by Rarity, bolded for emphasis: "Common magic items can often be bought in a town or city. Uncommon and Rare magic items are usually found only in cities, and rarer magic items might be sold only in wondrous locations, such as the City of Brass or Sigil." The critical words "can often" mean "some of the time, but not all of the time". It is entirely within the DM's purview to say that a town has no magic items at all, including potions. Or that some kinds of magic items can be bought, but potions aren't one of them. Or that a tiny handful of potions are on hand, but no more.

You are presuming dramatically more availability than the rules actually describe.

It is not easy mid-dungeon, but any time you are in a town with adventuring gear for sale you can buy them.

No, you can't. That's what I'm telling you. This simply isn't true. I have had MANY DMs--including 5e DMs--who explicitly and directly contradicted this.

By level 5 or so I am generally leaving town with about 30 potions of healing, more if you have enough gold and a bag of holding or something to carry them in. That is usually plenty to last until the next town I am able to purchase them in.

I have never seen a group capable of buying over 100 healing potions at level 5. (Assuming a group of 4-5, you'd need over 100, typically 120-150). Even with the DMs who did allow buying potions, the absolute maximum we could pick up in any town was maybe a dozen, probably less. You would need a large city, on the order of Neverwinter, Amn, Baldur's Gate, or Waterdeep, to even potentially buy 30 total, let alone 30 per person.

 

[Ashrym]

Think you guys have more loot and gold than I hand out.

I sell 1d6 potions of healing at vendors and uncommon items. You seem to do whatever you like in unlimited numbers.

Newer players generally though and we don't healing much with spells. Emergency use only.

If you play with Bastion rules each PC can have a herb garden in it that produces either one free healing potion or ten healer kits.

A greenhouse as a 9th level bastion facility grants a greater healing potion per week.

Even if you don't hand out much money there are still other ways to add potions.

Almost anyone can make generally usable arrows. It's a much bigger deal to find someone who can make healing potions.

It's not hard to be that someone who can make healing potions. It requires alchemist's supplies or a herbalism kit. Arrows requires woodcarver's tools. It's a tool for either.

In both cases the bastion system I just mentioned can craft either for the character starting at 5th level.

 

[Ashrym]

I have never seen a group capable of buying over 100 healing potions at level 5. (Assuming a group of 4-5, you'd need over 100, typically 120-150).

I separated this because I have to question why you think we would need 100 potions at 5th level.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I separated this because I have to question why you think we would need 100 potions at 5th level.

I don't.

That's what ECMO3 described. They specifically said, "By level 5 or so I am generally leaving town with about 30 potions of healing, more if you have enough gold and a bag of holding or something to carry them in."

They were describing being able to buy 30 per character. That's 120-150 potions.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

If you play with Bastion rules each PC can have a herb garden in it that produces either one free healing potion or ten healer kits.

Pretty big if, there. Certainly not going to be representative of most campaigns, nor even a mere plurality of campaigns.

It's not hard to be that someone who can make healing potions. It requires alchemist's supplies or a herbalism kit. Arrows requires woodcarver's tools. It's a tool for either.

And yet "there isn't anyone here who can make healing potions" is both (a) something I have heard multiple times, and (b) explicitly supported by the DMG text, as quoted. Are you disputing what the DMG text says?

In both cases the bastion system I just mentioned can craft either for the character starting at 5th level.

Both cases still depend on the (very big) if that the group is using that system.