D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[Maxperson]

I think you can in most campaigns, and like I said if the DM wants to limit the amount of PHB gear you can buy that should be a discussion in session 0.

The DMG states exp[licitly that common magic items will "often" be available in towns.

The PHB also says a character with a herbalism kit and 25gp of material can even create a potion of healing.



Potions are not in the same category as other magic items and I am not the only one who plays like this, there are entire threads on it all the way back to 2014.

What is different in 2024 is potions of healing are FAR more powerful now.

Regardless of how you view potions, they are magic items and the same paragraph that says often available in towns also says "If magic items are for sale." The former is subordinate to the latter. If magic items are not for sale, then potions will not be often available in town.

I do agree that many DMs treat potions(and scrolls) differently than other magic items, so there may be a hybrid can purchase those, but not other items. That will vary from table to table, though.

Your players "build temples" but somehow think the games I am running are "monte haul". I don't think most of my PCs have had enough money or time to do that.

We play to high level. They don't do that at 2nd level man.

Keep in mind an empty bastion 30 foot by 30 foot costs 3000 gold and takes 125 days to build.

I don't run 5.5e, so this is before bastions. That build time is ludicrous, though. The D&D designers apparently don't know how fast a whole bunch of hired dwarves can build things. It's not going to take 4 months for one 30x30 room.

 

[ECMO3]

We play to high level. They don't do that at 2nd level man.

I play to 20th level pretty regularly, but we are not building temples. In one game I am in now we are 16th level. I bought a bastion at 5th level with a little garden in it that produces poisons and antidotes, but it was pretty meh and I got bored and it is just on autopilot now. Maybe I would pay more attention if I couldn't buy potions of healing.

The other players are way into it though. At about 11th level we left for out for about a year and a half game time (80 weeks I think). It took 2 or 3 sessions in game. They left with "Harvest" commands in place and we came back at 14th level, rested up for a few days and I think between the party we had 150 potions of greater healing and 300 potions of regular healing that had been produced by the two PCs bastions while we were out hunting down slavers all over the continent.

I don't run 5.5e, so this is before bastions. That build time is ludicrous, though. The D&D designers apparently don't know how fast a whole bunch of hired dwarves can build things. It's not going to take 4 months for one 30x30 room.

2024 is a much different game when it comes to potions, crafting items and downtime. You can even get free spells that you have prepared and can cast once without using a slot and do that at low level.

 

[Zardnaar]

I play to 20th level pretty regularly, but we are not building temples. In one game I am in now we are 16th level. I bought a bastion at 5th level with a little garden in it that produces poisons and antidotes, but it was pretty meh and I got bored and it is just on autopilot now. Maybe I would pay more attention if I couldn't buy potions of healing.

The other players are way into it though. At about 11th level we left for out for about a year and a half game time (80 weeks I think). It took 2 or 3 sessions in game. They left with "Harvest" commands in place and we came back at 14th level, rested up for a few days and I think between the party we had 150 potions of greater healing and 300 potions of regular healing that had been produced by the two PCs bastions while we were out hunting down slavers all over the continent.




2024 is a much different game when it comes to potions, crafting items and downtime. You can even get free spells that you have prepared and can cast once without using a slot and do that at low level.

RAW dmg says of potions are for sale.

Also the dmg magic item table includes common magicitems. That includes potions of healing.

The number off items in your game wasn't the problem. You cherry picked the best ones in unlimited quantities.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

Haha, my players figured out at level 4 why the clansmen of the Steppes wanted so much gold for their battlebooze, to "make one drink and fight forever". The wizard finally bothered an Arcana check to figure out that they were actually healing potions (with a strong alcoholic component)

My way of saying, I hate the common "adventurer knowledge" in DnD of just kindof knowing that these magic things are what adventurers should have, just about as asinine as the fact that "adventurer" is a common profession, and that they have an apparent specialty industry... maybe adventurers should be endorsed too.

But RAW supports this. An organic world would be more like, " I am at knight errant on a quest for glory" without a video game like micro economy making specialty shops just for the "adventurer" trade

 

[ECMO3]

The number off items in your game wasn't the problem. You cherry picked the best ones in unlimited quantities.

You have that backwards.

Potions of healing are not among the "best magic items" they are the not even among the best potions or even "good" as far as magic items go. Potions of healing are on the high end of common items, but they are still common items. If you ranked all the magic items in the DMG on a scale of 1-10, a potion of healing would be about a 2 out of 10. By the DMG a bastion can make 2 of them a week at 5th level. With a party of 4 that is 8 a week right there ... without buying any, without looting any, without crafting any.

Quantities of magic items were not unlimited and in fact contrary to your statement, at games end we had very few of the "best magic items" in the game. We had 1 legendary item at 20th level. DM guideline is 11 legendary items "awarded" by 20th level. DM guidelines are 19 very rare items at 20th level. We had around half of that number of Very Rare.

So it is actually THE OPPOSITE of what you claim. We had more than the recommended 23 Rare items but overall according to the guidelines in the DMG, we had the right number of items, give or take, but they were not the "best ones" and were actually weak overall in terms of item quality for the level we were.

 

[Zardnaar]

You have that backwards.

Potions of healing are not among the "best magic items" they are the not even among the best potions or even "good" as far as magic items go. Potions of healing are on the high end of common items, but they are still common items. If you ranked all the magic items in the DMG on a scale of 1-10, a potion of healing would be about a 2 out of 10. By the DMG a bastion can make 2 of them a week at 5th level. With a party of 4 that is 8 a week right there ... without buying any, without looting any, without crafting any.

Quantities of magic items were not unlimited and in fact contrary to your statement, at games end we had very few of the "best magic items" in the game. We had 1 legendary item at 20th level. DM guideline is 11 legendary items "awarded" by 20th level. DM guidelines are 19 very rare items at 20th level. We had around half of that number of Very Rare.

So it is actually THE OPPOSITE of what you claim. We had more than the recommended 23 Rare items but overall according to the guidelines in the DMG, we had the right number of items, give or take, but they were not the "best ones" and were actually weak overall in terms of item quality for the level we were.

Didn't you load up on vicious weapon for everyone and resistance rings in multiples?

Table in DMG shows how many common magic items to gand out. And if you can even buy magical ones including common.

I don't think your example is typical nor RAW.

 

[ECMO3]

Didn't you load up on vicious weapon for everyone and resistance rings in multiples?

Those are not the best items in the game. They are not even close to the best items in the game. This is what put us well over the 23 Rare items we should have had (about 40-50 total) though. Without these we would have been WAY below the DMG guidelines in both quality and number of magic items in the game.

These 40-ish rare items are not the best magic items in the game and even in those quantities, they don't match the quantities of better items we should have been "awarded" according to the DMG.

40 rare items + 10 very rare items + 1 Legendary item is NOT as good as 23 rare items +19 very rare items + 11 Legendary items and the latter is what the DMG says we should have been awarded.

Also a lot of them were not "awarded" at all although that distinction is admittedly a bit flakey.

I don't think your example is typical nor RAW.

As I said in terms of the "best magic items" it is FAR, FAR lower than the DMG would indicate a party should be awarded at level 20.

Claiming we "cherry picked the best items" is just flat wrong. We cherry picked what we were allowed to cherry pick from (in part due to inexperience with the 2024 rules) and in fact at games end we had far fewer of "the best magic items" than the DMG indicates we should have had.

Also this is WHY the DM implemented limits on the number of rings you can wear. This was a situation created because Rare items were purchasable in Waterdeep in the adventure, Rings of Resistance were rare items according to the DMG and they were no longer attunement.

Sure the DM could have changed his mind in game and said "this is rediculous you can't purchase all those rings" but we had already talked about magic items and he had already set down the rules. He came up with a creative fix to this specific problem for future games.

Regardless of how common it is, what would have been completely wrong would be to tell players: "you can buy up to rare items" then when they do you change their mind because it makes them too powerful due to your first time playing with rule changes.

 

[Zardnaar]

Those are not the best items in the game. They are not even close to the best items in the game. This is what put us well over the 23 Rare items we should have had (about 40-50 total) though. Without these we would have been WAY below the DMG guidelines in both quality and number of magic items in the game.

These 40-ish rare items are not the best magic items in the game and even in those quantities, they don't match the quantities of better items we should have been "awarded" according to the DMG.

40 rare items + 10 very rare items + 1 Legendary item is NOT as good as 23 rare items +19 very rare items + 11 Legendary items and the latter is what the DMG says we should have been awarded.

Also a lot of them were not "awarded" at all although that distinction is admittedly a bit flakey.



As I said in terms of the "best magic items" it is FAR, FAR lower than the DMG would indicate a party should be awarded at level 20.

Claiming we "cherry picked the best items" is just flat wrong. We cherry picked what we were allowed to cherry pick from (in part due to an inexperienced DM) and in fact at games end we had far fewer of "the best magic items" than the DMG indicates we should have had.

Also this is WHY the DM implemented limits on the number of rings you can wear. This was a situation created because Rare items were purchasable in Waterdeep in the adventure, Rings of Resistance were rare items according to the DMG and they were no longer attunement.

Sure the DM could have changed his mind in game and said "this is rediculous you can't purchase all those rings" but we had already talked about this and he had already set down the rules, and he came up with a creative fix to this specific problem for future games.

Regardless of how common it is, what would have been completely wrong would be to tell players: "you can buy up to rare items" then when they do you change their mind because it makes them too powerful due to your first time playing with rule changes.

And how many people were using vicious weapons?

From memory you had a lot including a dual wielding chamion.

My limited testing I didn't use them but not requiring attunement is very good.

 

[Theory of Games]

To slightly extend this: spells often do half damage, or have some minimum effect, even if the target makes their save.

Outside of Graze, which is fixed <attack ability modifier> damage, non-caster characters rarely if ever achieve the same thing. If their efforts fail, they simply fail, no effect. It doesn't take much for even a high-level Fighter (3-4 attacks per round) to go a whole round without achieving anything.

Waitaminnit. You're suggesting:

The possibility of doing normal damage > guaranteed half damage?

Maybe I'll give you $5 later this week > Here's $2.50 now?

If that works for you, fine - but IME combat is too deadly to depend on "possibilities".

And my whole point here is comparing low to mid-level martials vs. casters in the same level range. Once 8th-level spells come online

 

[ECMO3]

And how many people were using vicious weapons?

Three I believe, which was all of the PCs that used weapons.

Viscous weapons are not the "best magic items" though.

If we were going buy the DMG guidelines they should have all been wielding a Vorpal Weapon with a Defender in the offhand and if they were doing that, it would have been only HALF of the 11 Legendary items we should have had according to the DMG.

From memory you had a lot including a dual wielding chamion.

We had no one that wielded dual weapons. The Champion was wielding a Viscous Maul at games end.

My Fey Warlock 8/Arcane Trickster 10/Paladin1/Bard 1 used a Viscous Rapier and a +1 Heavy Crossbow for Ranged with Agonizing Truestrike. She spent a lot of time casting spells though too.

I can't remember what melee weapon the Valor Bard/Warlock used, but he did not dual wield. It was a viscous weapon. For Ranged he used a Longbow.