[+] Star Trek Discovery (Fan) Thread

Umbran

Mod Squad
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On the one hand, I laughed out loud and said to my wife, "What, she expected the Federation to still be around after all that time? Good luck with that!" during that scene.

Some of the individual Imperial Dynasties of China ran over 500 years, and collectively, Dynastic China lasted from 2070 BC to 1912 AD - over 3900 years! Rome was founded in the 8th Century BC, and the last Roman Emperor died in 1453, over a thousand years run there. Yes, those things experienced massive changes over time, but they were, in some real senses, still continuous things.

So, long-lasting cultural lineages are not all that far-fetched. They are, instead, the foundation of much of what we currently call our civilization.

And, "The Federation" is not a "nation" in our normal sense of the term.

Honestly, if I was her, I'd be hoping that something better than the Federation existed by then. Not the Federation itself.

Starfleet officers are frequently types who strive for continuous improvement in themselves, their organization, and their government. You can have something that was better than the Federation she knew, that is still "the Federation" in name and a sense of lineage and base principles, even if elements of the implementation has changed.

It is a bit... overly-convenient to the criticism to take it she meant EXACTLY the same thing she remembered would still be there. She's a highly-educated officer. She knows history. Don't assume she's a fool.
 

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Mallus

Legend
The thing to remember about the Federation is it's an aspirational vision of the future created by Americans at the height of US power. Of course the Federation's most committed citizens --ie Starfleet officers -- think it's going to last forever!
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
Some of the individual Imperial Dynasties of China ran over 500 years, and collectively, Dynastic China lasted from 2070 BC to 1912 AD - over 3900 years! Rome was founded in the 8th Century BC, and the last Roman Emperor died in 1453, over a thousand years run there. Yes, those things experienced massive changes over time, but they were, in some real senses, still continuous things.

So, long-lasting cultural lineages are not all that far-fetched. They are, instead, the foundation of much of what we currently call our civilization.

And, "The Federation" is not a "nation" in our normal sense of the term.

Starfleet officers are frequently types who strive for continuous improvement in themselves, their organization, and their government. You can have something that was better than the Federation she knew, that is still "the Federation" in name and a sense of lineage and base principles, even if elements of the implementation has changed.

It is a bit... overly-convenient to the criticism to take it she meant EXACTLY the same thing she remembered would still be there. She's a highly-educated officer. She knows history. Don't assume she's a fool.

I agree with you. I know real-world history, and I assume she's not a fool, which is what I mentioned "on the other hand". It's more the way she seemed to expect that it would still be called "the Federation" and assumed right away that if "the Federation" did not exist, then it's ideals didn't either. (Also, it was a joke).

I assume that all of that was just writer's short-hand for letting us know what was up quickly, I think the conversation would take quite a lot longer otherwise. "How's the Federation?" "Gone." "Okay, but what are we doing instead?" (Lots of politics, etc) "Oooh, that's not good. Federation was better." (A good version of this scene would take quite awhile to do, be boring, and tell too much upfront.)
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I agree with you. I know real-world history, and I assume she's not a fool, which is what I mentioned "on the other hand". It's more the way she seemed to expect that it would still be called "the Federation" and assumed right away that if "the Federation" did not exist, then it's ideals didn't either. (Also, it was a joke).

Well, after 900 years, we wouldn't expect the language to be the same, even if the political entity still survived in some form. There's a Universal Translator at work.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
Some of the individual Imperial Dynasties of China ran over 500 years, and collectively, Dynastic China lasted from 2070 BC to 1912 AD - over 3900 years! Rome was founded in the 8th Century BC, and the last Roman Emperor died in 1453, over a thousand years run there. Yes, those things experienced massive changes over time, but they were, in some real senses, still continuous things.

So, long-lasting cultural lineages are not all that far-fetched. They are, instead, the foundation of much of what we currently call our civilization.

And, "The Federation" is not a "nation" in our normal sense of the term.



Starfleet officers are frequently types who strive for continuous improvement in themselves, their organization, and their government. You can have something that was better than the Federation she knew, that is still "the Federation" in name and a sense of lineage and base principles, even if elements of the implementation has changed.

It is a bit... overly-convenient to the criticism to take it she meant EXACTLY the same thing she remembered would still be there. She's a highly-educated officer. She knows history. Don't assume she's a fool.

They had different government structures though.

The longest lasting government. Europe was Byzantium/Eastern Roman empire which lasted from 325 or so to 1453.

Things like that are an exception. Can a government last 900 years? Yes. Will it? Probably not.

Rome was founded (maybe) but had at least three different types of government and multiple religions and changed during 8th century BC to 1453.

England and France are the older than 900 years but the government types aren't.

At University we learnt democracy isn't the most stable government form so the Federation lasting that long would be unusual.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Rome was founded (maybe) but had at least three different types of government and multiple religions and changed during 8th century BC to 1453.

But yet was still recognizably Rome through all that period.

Again, you folks seem to think she expected it to be EXACTLY THE SAME. As opposed to being changed, but recognizable. Lots of things change, but keep their identity intact.

Like each and every person posting here - we all change, but are usually still ourselves after the changes.

So, I repeat - don't assume she's a fool, and her comment is fine.
 

Zardnaar

Legend
But yet was still recognizably Rome through all that period.

Again, you folks seem to think she expected it to be EXACTLY THE SAME. As opposed to being changed, but recognizable. Lots of things change, but keep their identity intact.

Like each and every person posting here - we all change, but are usually still ourselves after the changes.

So, I repeat - don't assume she's a fool, and her comment is fine.

I don't think she's a fool but thought it was an over reaction.

As I said if I jumped in a time machine I wouldn't expect my government to exist and wouldn't be overly surprised my country didn't exist. It's 900 years.

I would be more surprised if it did exist however. It's not impossible but very few countries existed 900 years ago let alone their government form.

Over 200 years Rome went from Monarchy, Republic, Empire, to some sort of Caesaro Popism hybrid. Religion changed three times, language twice at least, and the government outlasted the city in the empire but it wasn't really recognizably Rome from 6th or 7th century at the latest.

That's when latin and the last structures of the classical Ronan state went bye bye. After 1204 CE no more chariot races.
 


Hussar

Legend
And, let's look at this from the context of the ST universe. The Klingon Empire is thousands of years old. The Vulcans had unified as a single global entity for a thousand years or more, and that's where Burnham grew up. By Burnham's time frame, the United States would be about 500 years old. Many of the Earth's countries would be well over a thousand years old by her time frame - a good chunk of Europe and Asia anyway. Heck, by her time frame the Federation is already a century old.

Having her be surprised that the Federation didn't last as long as the Romulan, Klingon or various other species forms of government doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to me.
 

FitzTheRuke

Legend
And, let's look at this from the context of the ST universe. The Klingon Empire is thousands of years old. The Vulcans had unified as a single global entity for a thousand years or more, and that's where Burnham grew up. By Burnham's time frame, the United States would be about 500 years old. Many of the Earth's countries would be well over a thousand years old by her time frame - a good chunk of Europe and Asia anyway. Heck, by her time frame the Federation is already a century old.

Having her be surprised that the Federation didn't last as long as the Romulan, Klingon or various other species forms of government doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to me.
Hmmm. I am convinced.
 

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