Yeah, I would say that walking out into the middle of a room and inviting 10 enemies to have at you, knowing that you are in no danger, indicates no challenge. And, as I pointed out, and showed you the math, using action surge and second wind (what a cheater!) only speeds up the battle by two rounds, but the same result is inevitable.
What do you consider not a challenge? I get the impression you think a poorly built, geared and played fighter should be able to walk into the middle of a group of enemies, fart, and they all die.
To defeat the enemies without an enormous expenditure of effort and without taking serious wounds.
You act like a warrior challenging a group of lesser enemies is somehow rare. It isn't. At all.
I could keep going. It is literally one of the most common ways to show a warriors is a bad-ass, to effortlessly take on a group of enemies while surrounded. This is trope 101.
A single level 20 should not be able to solo 10 CR10 opponents without careful planning and circumstances. If your stance is that this hypothetical poorly geared, built, and tactically challenged level 20 fighter is weak unless he can easily solo 10 Devas at once, then...yeah. You don't want to play D&D, you want to play the Goku game. You should home-brew that, and have fun.
You know, you make a big deal out of this being "solo". I know why. It is because of course a fighter is stronger with a party. And by party, we mean spellcasters to do the heavy lifting. After all...
Probably - it's an ideal situation for AoE attacks. Though it kind of comes down to initiative and which spells they took, because if they lose initiative and the scenario is the same (+2 AC is the only magic item, so lets give them bracers of defence) then they are looking at taking on the order of 176 damage before they can do anything. Oh, and which core class features is this evocation wizard not allowed to use, lest they be accused of making it too easy? Also...didn't you suggest earlier that giving a sub-class is kind of cheating, too? Oh yeah, you did. Those goalposts keep moving. But I'll give that to you, since taking a sub-class is required.
Oh look, this is an ideal situation for a wizard's strongest trait? Weird. See, the fighter won initiative in both our examples, and it wasn't commented on. But now we have to specifically mention that the wizard is in trouble if they don't win initiative.... because of course, they AREN'T in trouble if they do. And we once again see, large group of enemies? Ideal for the wizard. Single enemy? Ideal for the wizard. Kind of hard to find a combat situation that a wizard can't be ideal for. Wonder if that means anything.
Also interesting you want to compare the near legendary magical plate armor to the magical equivalent of a shield, an uncommon item if memory serves. Strange that.
As for the subclass? Sure, get rid of the wizard's subclass. It actually does not matter.
But, you will declare with sneering confidence, I complained about the fighter using his resources, so surely the wizard can't use spells right? Except, you misunderstand my complaint. My complaint has focused on the AMOUNT of resources, ie ALL OF THEM. A wizard casting a 2nd level at-will spell costs nothing. Them casting a free 3rd level spell is negligible. Just like Batman using a smoke bomb. Sure, it is a resource, but it is such a small, meaningless resource to their overall power that it doesn't really leave them weakened for the next fight.
No, and I'm beginning to think that you have a very selective memory, but fortunately for us all the posts are still there so we can check [*checks*]. Right, so what I actually wrote (we are trying to argue the actual facts, right?), is that you would expect them to have done those things...but to go along with your scenario I didn't have the fighter take any of them. Just left them at 16 con and no feats. It's odd to me that you missed this, since I wrote it very clearly and then reiterated the point several times: I went along with your set-up even though it is terrible for the fighter. I knew it wouldn't make a difference.
But the fact that you keep insisting I changed things is interesting; it suggests that you prefer spin to, you know, actually addressing the facts as presented, even though I let you have all your preconditions except the ones that could not happen in game (i.e. instead of your rough estimate of HP and used the actual HP as determined by fixed HP levelling, and gave the fighter a sub-class, though made it the plainest one to stay in the spirit of this fighter being awful).
And then just to humour you even further, I even took away the resources and still showed showed you that the result is the same. But now you write:
Nope. Wrong. You are now in the reality denying phase of losing an argument. Go review the math. No action surge, no healing wind, no tactics, nothing, and the fighter finishes with 56 HP, or 92 if they want to spend a bit more time. So your example shows that basically the worst built and played level 20 fighter can spend no resources and walk away from the CR-rating deadly encounter you set-up.
Honestly, I skimmed your fight. Because I felt and still feel that the hp left at the end proves my point. I original made the example to show that the fighter would lose about 50% of their health, then found it was all of it.
But fine, I went back and looked it back over again. First, I do apoligize, it seems I mismathed at some point and 184 is the correct hp for 16 con.
I am now going to do this without action surge and without second wind. And I'm going to do it twice, once with 22 and once with 23. It should be easy to keep them inline.
Round 1: Fighter kills one Orog. Not sure how you think only eight could attack, since one can throw a javelin. That is 16x10+7 = 167 potential damage, 16 greataxe attacks, and a javeling. 25% to hit ends with the fighter taking 41.75, which I will round to 41. 20% is 33.4 which I will round to 33.
Round 2: Fighter kills one Orog, eight left. 16 attacks, 160 potential damage. leaves us with 40 and 32
Three: Fighter kills one Orog, seven left. 14 attacks, 140 potential damage. 35 and 28
Four : Fighter kills one Orog, six left. 12 attacks, 120 potential damage. 30 and 24
Five: Fighter kills one Orog, five left. 10 attack, 100 potential damage. 25 and 20
Six: Fighter kills one Orog, four left. 8 attacks, 80 potential damage. 20 and 16
Seven: Fighter kills one Orog, three left. 6 attacks, 60 potential damage. 15 and 12
Eight : Fighter kills one Orog, two left. 4 attacks 40 potential damage. 10 and 8
Nine: Fighter kills one Orog, One left. 2 attacks 20 potential damage. 5 and 4
Ten: Last Orog dead
Total for the 22 AC fighter is 221 damage. At 184 hp, that is death.
Total for the 23 AC fighter is 177. At 184 hp that is 7 hp left. Not 56.
So, without action surge and second wind, the fighter is one bad roll away from death, if they are a champion or have a 23 AC. Because, remembere, we aren't talking maximum damage. We've been ignoring Crits this entire time. A single crit and your champion is dead. Aha! But the champion didn't crit! Okay, and? Sure, the champion will crit 15% of the time, but we also assume the champion never missed a single attack. 15% of the time will be crits, which will count as a little extra damage (+4.5 per crit) but somewhere around 30% of the time the champion will miss, correct? Even if we give them a magical +3 sword that only means their miss rate equals their crit rate, and a missed hit subtracts more than a crit gives.
So, actually, if we account for missing the enemy, then... doesn't the 23 AC fighter die too?
See above. I took the champion, the plainest sub-class. I have no idea what a Banneret is; they are not in the 5e rules.
Also known as the Purple Dragon Knight, introduced in the Sword Coast Adventurers guide. Absolutely part of 5e's rule set.
A cavalier is probably the worst possible choice for this encounter, but even without a mount (kind of the whole point of the sub-class, but whatever) they still survive, though admittedly with fewer HP.
Will they though? I just did the math, and it doesn't look good for them.
But hey, let's think up some other scenarios just real quick.
The Battlemaster, strongest of the fighters right? They can add 6d12 damage to this fight. Or about 39 damage. That's about a full Orog, so let's say that if they used their manuevers in every attack they can speed things up by about a round. They are also competely out of resources, unless they action surged and second winded... Well, they'd have the 22 AC, or they would have to reduce their damage, so they'd be looking near death.
Samurai? They get an extra 45 hp per day, and they can make an additional three attacks. Still have the 22 AC, but that probably means they survive, with no more daily resources and nearly dead... Easy fight right?
Psi Warrior? Well, they can once per day increase their AC by +2, so that will help a lot. And they can add 12d12+int mod times 12 damage. Hey, winner winner chicken dinner right? They might get through this with a good chunk of health. All it takes is... severely reducing their daily abilities.
Are you seeing the pattern? Even the more powerful fighter subclasses aren't really changing this. Sure, they can survive, but it is through spending more and more resources, often daily resources they can't get back on a short rest.
Hey...why did you take an evoker wizard for your counter-example? Just wondering - you seem to think sub-class shouldn't be discussed except when it suits your argument, it seems.
Why? because I had just made one for Scott's Androsphinx he declared no wizard could ever possibly kill (funny how after I proved that there was silence) and so I had it on hand. I don't NEED that wizard. It was just convenient.
No, that wasn't his point, his point was that in his experience, high level fighters don't struggle against trash mobs. I believe it, given that his experience is based on actual gameplay where those fighters are presumably normally geared and built, and played by people who are actually trying. Given that your scenario allowed none of that and the fighter still came out on top quite easily, I believe him.
I believe him too, because most parties have wizards to shift the balance dramatically in the parties favor. So it certainly seems like the Fighter isn't going to struggle. Until you take away that powerful tool they were relying on.
We could math it out, but the paladin does indeed come out about the same. The druid dies. Badly and quickly. Unless they use their magic to escape, but that wasn't the point.
I'm sorry, unless they use their what? Magic. Actually, that is kind of the entire point.
I think you really need to clarify what you mean by "struggle," because your example actually shows that a poorly played, geared, and built fighter could handle that situation with no sweat. Like, how many HP does the fighter need to finish with for it to count as "without a struggle." 100%? 80%?
80% would be good. I was going to settle for 70%
Ummm...yeah? Level 20? Sword and board fighter? Let's give them AC 26 and a +3 weapon. Yup, that does it. Easily - they finish with 81% health and could pretty much top themselves off with a second wind except that is dirty, dirty cheating, apparently. (It would probably be higher because now they are killing an extra Orog every few rounds but, meh).
26 AC? So that's legendary +3 plate mail, and a +3 shield, along with a +3 weapon. Let's math it out then
4d8+40 or an average of 58, actually only three attacks kills an Orog. 26 AC is only hittable with a crit, so 5% but all that damage would be doubled. I'll count the attacks and then do the damage after.
R1: Kills 1.25 orogs, suffers 17 attacks
R2: Kills 2.50 orogs, 16 attacks
R3: Kills 3.75 orogs, 14 attack
R4: Kills 5 orogs, 10 attacks
R5: 6.25 orogs, 8 attacks
R6: 7.50 orogs, 6 attacks
R7: 8.75 orogs. 4 attacks
R8: 10 orogs dead
That is 75 attacks, which is about 3 to 4 crits (3.75 actually.) Which would be between 60 and 80 damage. Leaving them with... 68% to 57% of their hit points.
Huh... wonder why you said 81%, were you perhaps using some action surges or assuming more extra damage from an outside source? Still, for an encounter most wizards would yawn through, if we equip the fighter with the absolute best gear, they might pull through with almost three-quarters of their health. Maybe.
Clearly there is no power disparity between the classes right?
Okay, so we finish with the crux of it. Yes, I expect that soloing a deadly encounter should be a struggle. This isn't. All you've shown is that a terribly geared, played, and built fighter can handle your sample encounter no problem, and, contrary to what you keep asserting, also do so without using a single special ability, if they want to spend a few more rounds at it.
That's the issue with this entire thread: it is built on unrealistic power fantasies about what fighters, specifically, should be like at high levels, which is, apparently, basically Goku (i.e. can easily solo 10 CR10 opponents). That isn't D&D, and certainly isn't anything like a reasonable proposition for OneD&D. It isn't "threadcrapping!" when an obviously unrealistic proposal is put in the wrong sub-forum.
Why is being able to fight 10 CR 2 monsters without using significant resources unrealisitic? I mean, at the top of this post I showed five instances of martial characters in basically this same or worse situation.
But you know what, clearly I am completely and totally biased, unreliable, and nothing I say can be taken at value. So, let's try this angle
This is a video of a Gauntlet run, by CMCC. There are three gauntlet runs on his channel. A wizard build, a paladin/divine sorcerer/warlock build, and this one which is a PAM zealot barbarian. There are five seperate encounter, the exact same encounters for each build. The only difference is that the wizard and PDSW got a warrior sidekick, and the barbarian gets a spellcaster sidekick.
Both the casters got to, and failed, the 5th encounter. Which encounter do you want to guess the Barbarian died in? Watch the video. Then watch one of the caster runs, then feel free to come and tell me how that yet again proves nothing because reasons.
