D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

EzekielRaiden said:

Just so we're clear. You're claiming most published adventures provide at least 5000 gp by the time the characters are level 5.

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Published adventures don't matter in any case. WotC has to make them to appeal to the broadest swathe of customers, which means that those who like a ton of money and items will get them. Those who like less have to cut back. They aren't generally created with the balance of 5e in mind.

Maxperson said:

Published adventures don't matter in any case. WotC has to make them to appeal to the broadest swathe of customers, which means that those who like a ton of money and items will get them. Those who like less have to cut back. They aren't generally created with the balance of 5e in mind.

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Whether or not they matter in general is irrelevant. The claim was that they do a thing. If you take issue with WotC adventures mattering or not mattering, bring it up with ECMO3.

ECMO3 said:

What rules? Can you cite that?

As an example, the Redbrand hideout in Lost Mine of Phandelver has 1151gp of loot in it, NOT counting magic items. Additionally it has probably around 5 potions of healing in that hideout alone.

You are typically doing that hideout at level 2.

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Most encounters will be with individuals, not hordes(entire tribes of creatures or single very powerful creatures that like to hoard like dragons). Especially at low levels like level 2.

It takes 600xp to go from level 2 to 3. A single moderate encounter will be 1/6th of that amount in experience. A deadly encounter 1/3 of it. You're looking at 3-6 encounters to level up from 2 to 3.

The average individual treasure amount for CR 0-4 creatures is 14 silver to 10 gold. Let's say half of them have the 14 silver and the other half have 10gp. Converting the gold to silver and using 6(though encounters will often have less) creatures per encounter, that makes 42gp 6sp per encounter. Totaling that you end up with 127gp 8sp TOTAL for 3 encounters up to 256gp 4sp for 6 encounters.

If you're getting 350gp(including the potion values listed) per person, you are getting waaaaaay more than the book indicates. That number you listed is 4x more at the maximum number of encounters than you should expect at level 2. 8x more at the minimum number of encounters.

And you are assuming that the DM is going to overturn RAW and have magic marts for you to buy unlimited potions at. Even for common items like a potion of healing, the 5e DMG says this...

"Common items, such as a potion of healing, can be procured from an alchemist, herbalist, or spellcaster. Doing so is rarely as simple as walking into a shop and selecting an item from a shelf. The seller might ask for a service, rather than coin."

Your personal game is atypical of how games are run in my experience. It's pretty Monty Haul with regard to your magic items and money. That's fine as you guys from all you've said here are having a blast, but it's not how the game is run if you are sticking to the rules.

5.5e of course may(and probably did) change those rules, so I'm not sure how accurate what I just said about the numbers is if you are playing 5.5e.

EzekielRaiden said:

Whether or not they matter in general is irrelevant. The claim was that they do a thing. If you take issue with WotC adventures mattering or not mattering, bring it up with ECMO3.

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From everything I have personally seen and read, they give an amount of treasure and magic items that is well in excess of what the 5e DMG indicates should happen.

EzekielRaiden said:

Just so we're clear. You're claiming most published adventures provide at least 5000 gp by the time the characters are level 5.

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Yes I think most do and as an example I posted something from what is probably the most commonly played 5E adventure which has over 1100 gold peices in one dungeon that represents part of level 2 and I did not include any of the magical loot from the dungeon in that in that number.

Maxperson said:

Most encounters will be with individuals, not hordes(entire tribes of creatures or single very powerful creatures that like to hoard like dragons). Especially at low levels like level 2.

It takes 600xp to go from level 2 to 3. A single moderate encounter will be 1/6th of that amount in experience. A deadly encounter 1/3 of it. You're looking at 3-6 encounters to level up from 2 to 3.

The average individual treasure amount for CR 0-4 creatures is 14 silver to 10 gold. Let's say half of them have the 14 silver and the other half have 10gp. Converting the gold to silver and using 6(though encounters will often have less) creatures per encounter, that makes 42gp 6sp per encounter. Totaling that you end up with 127gp 8sp TOTAL for 3 encounters up to 256gp 4sp for 6 encounters.

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I think most published adventures provide far more than this. Not a little more than this but far more and as I said earlier, there are entire threads on this board talking about PCs getting too much loot.

In any case, whether accurate or not, by level 5 PCs have enough money to buy plenty of potions of healing.

Maxperson said:

And you are assuming that the DM is going to overturn RAW and have magic marts for you to buy unlimited potions at. Even for common items like a potion of healing, the 5e DMG says this...

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Potions of healing are standard adventuring gear and as noted in the DMG common magic items are "often" available in towns.

What I assume is that if we are going to be limited on what PHB gear we can buy that the DM would mention that in session 0.

Also I have never had a DM say I could only buy 2 or 3 or some other number of potions of healing. When they are are available it is usually deduct the money and put them in your inventory.

Maxperson said:

Your personal game is atypical of how games are run in my experience.

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Ok, explain to me how it goes in your experience when you walk into a town or city and want to buy potions of healing?

Maxperson said:

It's pretty Monty Haul with regard to your magic items and money.

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My magic items in the 1-20 campaign I noted are LESS than the DMG says you should be awarded as a guideline and aside from being less overall, way less when it came to number of very rare and legendary items.

The vast majority of games I play are published adventures (both WOTC and 3rd party) and the loot we get is the loot in the adventure.

Also as I noted, there are4 threads on this board talking about PCs having too much money that they can't spend it all and I don't see these comments on those threads.

Maxperson said:

Published adventures don't matter in any case.

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I think more people play published adventures than homespun adventures, especially if you include older conversions. I do think a lot of those are 3rd party adventures, but published just the same and seem to me to have the same sort of loot.

EzekielRaiden said:

Whether or not they matter in general is irrelevant. The claim was that they do a thing. If you take issue with WotC adventures mattering or not mattering, bring it up with ECMO3.

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Actually the claim is that there are usually better ways to use a bonus action for healing than wasting a use of second wind on it. Healing potions, when they are widely available, (as they are in most games IME) are one of those ways.

Aside from buying healing potions, they can also be made, are very frequently found as loot and can be produced by your bastion. A party of 4 level 5 PCs can have 8 potions of healing a week made at their bastions while they are out adventuring!

The rabbit hole on the cost of potions is just an attempt to prop up the arguement that healing is an effective use of 2nd Wind in the 2024 rules. It generally isn't past level 2 and really isn't past level 5.

ECMO3 said:

I think most published adventures provide far more than this. Not a little more than this but far more and as I said earlier, there are entire threads on this board talking about PCs getting too much loot.

In any case, whether accurate or not, by level 5 PCs have enough money to buy plenty of potions of healing.

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1) Don't assume that everyone runs adventure paths. A lot of DMs come up with their own adventures.
2) As I pointed out, by 5e RAW you are rarely able to just walk in and buy healing potions, and when you are, there are no guarantees that there will be as many as you want.

ECMO3 said:

Potions of healing are standard adventuring gear and as noted in the DMG common magic items are "often" available in towns.

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But rarely just available to purchase for gold. Plus, while the 5.5e DMG says are "often" in towns or cities, it also says, "If you allow characters to buy and sell magic items...," so being able to buy even common items isn't guaranteed by the rules.

ECMO3 said:

What I assume is that if we are going to be limited on what PHB gear we can buy that the DM would mention that in session 0.

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I do agree with you here that if the DM is going to sell or not sell magic items, it should be brought up in session 0.

ECMO3 said:

Also I have never had a DM say I could only buy 2 or 3 or some other number of potions of healing. When they are are available it is deduct the money and put them in your inventory.

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Sure, but as I mentioned, you seem to play in Monty Haul games, so of course your DMs wouldn't say that. I've played in many games where healing potions weren't even available at all a lot of the time we went looking.

ECMO3 said:

Ok, explain to me how it goes in your experience when you walk into a town or city and want to buy potions of helaing?

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Depends on the DM. I've experienced everything from a hard "Magic items aren't for sale" to two DMs who had magic marts and we could buy anything in a city. The vast majority, though, either said no items for sale or else it was highly limited if you could even find them.

ECMO3 said:

Also as I noted, there are4 threads on this board talking about PCs having too much money that they can't spend it all and I don't see these comments on those threads.

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Meh. Those threads are overblown. My players have never had any issues spending money on things. Their characters care about stuff, donate, build temples and other things, purchase land and homes in multiple cities they frequent and more.

People who have trouble spending money are those who in my opinion are unable/unwilling to think of cool things on their own and want the game to provide them with lists of things to spend gold on.

Maxperson said:

1) Don't assume that everyone runs adventure paths. A lot of DMs come up with their own adventures.

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A lot do, but I do believe they are a minority, hence I don't think most do.

Maxperson said:

2) As I pointed out, by 5e RAW you are rarely able to just walk in and buy healing potions, and when you are, there are no guarantees that there will be as many as you want.

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I think you can in most campaigns, and like I said if the DM wants to limit the amount of PHB gear you can buy that should be a discussion in session 0.

The DMG states exp[licitly that common magic items will "often" be available in towns.

The PHB also says a character with a herbalism kit and 25gp of material can even create a potion of healing.

Maxperson said:

But rarely just available to purchase for gold. Plus, while the 5.5e DMG says are "often" in towns or cities, it also says, "If you allow characters to buy and sell magic items...," so being able to buy even common items isn't guaranteed by the rules.

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Potions are not in the same category as other magic items and I am not the only one who plays like this, there are entire threads on it all the way back to 2014.

What is different in 2024 is potions of healing are FAR more powerful now.

Maxperson said:

Meh. Those threads are overblown. My players have never had any issues spending money on things. Their characters care about stuff, donate, build temples and other things, purchase land and homes in multiple cities they frequent and more.

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Your players "build temples" but somehow think the games I am running are "monte haul". I don't think most of my PCs have had enough money or time to do that.

Keep in mind an empty bastion 30 foot by 30 foot costs 3000 gold and takes 125 days to build.