10 Questions for the Quarterstaff Implement contreversy

[Mengu]

Because to do so is to deny an entire category of implement to every single Small character capable of using staffs?

That's not the implement's problem. That's a small character problem, which needs its own fix.

This how I treat staffs (and interpret the rules):

• When used as an implement, Weapon Skill Focus does not apply.
• When used as a weapon, weapon proficiency and weapon focus applies.

The problem is, weapon focus *does* apply to implement powers (at least per Character Builder). However, when it applies seems to be a question of debate. There are 2 main categories of opinions:

1. Weapon focus applies if you use the staff as a weapon (two hands) using a weapon or implement power.
2. Weapon focus applies regardless of how you use the staff (one or two hands), when using an implement power.

Actually, there is no reason to believe you need to use two hands for a full blade or mordenkrad when using them as an implement.

By this token, Swordmage Warding should grant a +3 bonus for two-handed weapon users because you're not really using your off hand for a two-handed weapon, it's just an implement.

 

[N0Man]

The problem is, weapon focus *does* apply to implement powers (at least per Character Builder). However, when it applies seems to be a question of debate. There are 2 main categories of opinions:

I think the Character Builder is wrong on this point. There are many rules the CB has wrong, particularly in this month's build.

Anyway, wasn't this even explicitly covered in the PHB with Sorcerers and using daggers as implements?

 

[Larrin]

By this token, Swordmage Warding should grant a +3 bonus for two-handed weapon users because you're not really using your off hand for a two-handed weapon, it's just an implement.

Again, if the rules don't say you don't get the +3 to warding bonus to swordmages using two handed weapons as an implement, there is no reason to think they can't. But sword mages also have plenty of weapon powers, which do require you to use both hands, which is when the warding falls down to +1. The argument of whether after making a two handed weapon attacks with a sword you can let go with one hand, thus getting back up to +3 warding is an argument for another thread. I know not what the clear answer to that is.

I think the Character Builder is wrong on this point. There are many rules the CB has wrong, particularly in this month's build.

Anyway, wasn't this even explicitly covered in the PHB with Sorcerers and using daggers as implements?

Its been said a lot that weapon focus transfers to implements, by relatively official people. At least one "ask the Sage" or whatever said basically this. I think its a bad call to allow it. I will see if the PHB2 says anything with Sorcerors and daggers, but i'm betting it just gives the standard "you get no proficiency bonus when using daggers as implements" which sadly doesn't really intersect with weapon focus.

 

[interwyrm]

By this token, Swordmage Warding should grant a +3 bonus for two-handed weapon users because you're not really using your off hand for a two-handed weapon, it's just an implement.

I see no problem with that with the following caveat. If you get your +3 ac bonus, you can't use a weapon power until your next turn. (Including the MBA the aegis of assault would grant).

Edit: Called away midresponse. Larrin said it better anyways.

 

[N0Man]

My first instinct is that a staff (whether it's a quarter staff, half staff or whole staff), is two-handed, which means it can't be used in one hand.

The ruling against this, is the root of all my problems with the staff.

For all other weapons that can be used as implements, it is very clear whether the implement is used in one hand or both hands. If you are a swordmage with fullblade implement, it is two handed. If you are a sorcerer, a dagger implement is one handed. If you are a dwarf warlock with a mordenkrad pact hammer, it is two handed. Why they had to go and make an exception for the staff is completely beyond me.

What ruling? I've yet to see any rule of any implement requiring 2 hands.

There's no rule that even a staff has to be used 2-handed as an implement. It does say that you can use it for melee, and for melee, treat it like a quarterstaff. I take that to mean that it requires 2 hands as a weapon.

 

[Mengu]

There's no rule that even a staff has to be used 2-handed as an implement. It does say that you can use it for melee, and for melee, treat it like a quarterstaff. I take that to mean that it requires 2 hands as a weapon.

I apologize. It never occurred to me that a mordenkrad or fullblade could be used in one hand as an implement. So I guess a gnome could use a pair of fullblade implements, one in each hand.

Am I the only one who thinks this is NOT intuitive?

 

[interwyrm]

Just a bit of logical game thinking here...

Greatswords, Mauls, and Greataxes are two-handed because they do more damage with melee powers than their one-handed equivalents.

Does an implement power do more damage with a staff than it does with an orb, rod, holy symbol, etc?

There is no mechanical advantage to using a staff implement over other implement types other than possibly from the implement enchantments.

Thus, there is no reason to impose an additional restriction.

 

[Flipguarder]

This is kind of tongue in cheek here Interwyrm but...

That sounds like an argument a player in my group would use when they have an incredibly broken combo behind their back.

"No man, see the persistent metamagic feat raises the level of the spell SIX LEVELS! How could you possibly call that overpowered!"

 

[Diirk]

Every implement class now has -some- way to 'weaponize' their implements should they choose, and that's not a bad thing.

Oh? How do I give my shaman a weapon implement ? As apparently waving a sword instead of a totem means I'll suddenly become able to channel my spirit in a more damaging way (weapon focus) ...

 

[Dice4Hire]

Man I hope wizards clears this up and does it intuitively. Allowing weapon focus to apply to spells channeled through the weapon is ridiculous. But according to the monk playtests, weapon and implement expertise are about to be rolled into one.