[3.5] Damage Reduction & Andy Collins

[BryonD]

A) Yes, I think they very much do.

B) Sorry. My bad.

 

[Psion]

You may (or may not) want to get your house ruler ready. Witness these quotes from various WotC spotlights.

The revised barbed devil:

"Special Qualities: [...] damage reduction 10/good"
[...]
"A barbed devil's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

And the bone devil:

"Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good"
[...]
"A bone devil's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

Ah. So if this tells the whole story, then we have a rather blatant break with prior canon.

Me no likey.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

So neglecting crits, you get 17 points of damage in per round on average.

And remember, when a creature has 300+ hit points, 17 points of damage/round will take over 15 rounds to kill him. The Titan can afford to ignore the fighter entirely for ten rounds while squashing everyone else and then squash him in three rounds and still live.

Now add in that a L21 fighter WILL have improved crit.
His first attack has a 19% chance of being a crit.
Average crit damage = 45-15 = 30 points.

The chance to crit once in any single round is 46% (unless the fighter power attacks, in which case, that goes down). So, adding in crits only ups this fighter's damage to 28 points per round. I don't think the Titan has to worry about him very much.

Now grab a 2hander and power attack for 5 points.
70% hit for 1d12(6.5)+5(enhance)+4(greater spec)+ 13(Str) +10(PA)- 15 is still nice. = 18.5 points damage PER hit.

And it adds up to 25.9 points of damage per round (on average) excluding criticals. The Titan still doesn't have to worry about Mr. Two Hander.

7% crit rate for 3d12+96-15 = 100 points of damage.

And a 13.75% chance of a crit on any given full attack action--this brings the total average damage/round to 36.48

I don't think the Titan has any reason to be worried yet.

So, the bottom line to me is that while the fighter does have the proverbial one arm tied behind his back he is FAR from useless. Any claim that he is useless is a knee-jerk response without any serious analysis.

And your "serious analysis" showing that the fighter can pound on the Titan for at least ten full attack actions before putting him in any serious danger makes him useful in which way?

And there SHOULD be opponents that marginalize fighters. Just as there should be opponents that marginalize wizards (constructs, etc) and marginalize rogues (undead, constructs, oozes).

Of course, the Titan seems like he's marginalizing everyone in the party at once. The fighter? DR 15/Can't beat it makes him small fry. The Wizard? SR 32 and good saves all around mean that he'll have to unload his entire arsenel at the Titan before he hopes to accomplish much of anything. The Sorceror? SR and good saves are even more of an anathema to the sorceror who doesn't have enough feats for Greater Spell Penetration and more than one or two Greater Spell Foci. The Rogue? DR 15/can't get by it gives him the same problem as the fighter (even with 10d6 sneak attack, he won't average more than 45 points per hit (not much more than the power attacking fighter)--and he'll have fewer attacks and more problems problems hitting). . . and he'd better be flying or he won't even be able to reach the Titan's vital spots to sneak attack. The Cleric? If you wanted to combine the weaknesses of the rogue, fighter and the sorceror, you have the cleric's situation vis a vis the Titan. Not enough feats to have GSP and GSF and not enough attack bonus to hit reliably, and not enough damage to get through DR reliably.

The Titan is not a monster who will marginalize one particular class. The Titan marginalizes all classes unless it's DR can be negated.

 

[BryonD]

EB, I think your analysis proves the value of mine.

Four 2-hand fighters (a poor distribution to begin with) would do OVER 100 points per round (and that is excluding crits, which would occur) That would take out the titan in less than 4 rounds. (A lot less if you recall that one of those 100 point crits is very likely to happen).

Then you start giving the fighters their other gear to bring them up to total value and it gets worse.

Then you consider that a better distributed party works better.
Then you consider that not only is a four fighter party poor distribution, it plays into the Titan's strength.

The SR is exactly where it should be for CR. It does not marginalize L21 wizards, clerics or sorcerers at all.
Are you REALLY claiming that a rogue's value should be measured by his melee combat potential? (Hint: A L21 rogue will be REAL good at helping the party avoid or ambush the titan, or probably about 200 other things that are vastly more effective that sticking a titan with a short pointy blade)

So, we have made a stack of assumtpions, all biasing the encounter in the favor of the Titan and we end up with a fight that is expected to end in less than 4 rounds. Perhaps the Titan is underpowered.

About a week ago you were complaining the fights were to short.
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52931
Now you are saying that a creature is to powerful when the number show that it might lst more than 3 rounds, when the deck is stacked completely in its favor.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

EB, I think your analysis proves the value of mine.

Four 2-hand fighters (a poor distribution to begin with) would do OVER 100 points per round (and that is excluding crits, which would occur) That would take out the titan in less than 4 rounds. (A lot less if you recall that one of those 100 point crits is very likely to happen).

I'm not sure it would be an open & shut case for the four fighters. I think an awful lot would defend upon what the Titan did with his SLAs and attacks--especially his AoOs. A successful sunder on the initial AoO while the fighters closed would change matters a lot.

And I've no idea what his Awesome Blow feat does. If it really is as awesome as it's supposed to sound, it could cut the fighter's life expectancy down significantly.

Then you start giving the fighters their other gear to bring them up to total value and it gets worse.

What offensive gear do you have in mind? As far as I can tell, your 20th level fighters have pretty much all the offensive gear they can use. Maybe you could give them +5 keen speed weapons. . . .

Then you consider that a better distributed party works better.
Then you consider that not only is a four fighter party poor distribution, it plays into the Titan's strength.

I'm not certain of that. The Titan is certainly strong in melee combat however, you've also maximized the Titan's melee opponents to fighting a Titan--from their fighting style (2 handed weapon) to the particular weapon--a greataxe's x3 crit is somewhat better against DR than the greatsword's x2 crit). If the four fighters were sword and shield fighters, the Titan would be better off. If one were an archer, the Titan would be better off (assuming a 20th level archer would have GWS, point blank and greater precise shot, an 18 strength, a 2 element mighty Speed bow, and +5 arrows, he'd have 6 attacks for 1d8+14 +2d6 each--an average of only 3.5 damage/hit before elemental damage (which the Titan may have resistance to)--he's worse off than the sword and shield fighter).

Considering other options--a party of rogues (much easier for the Titan to smash in melee although his chain lightning wouldn't be as useful), a party of wizards (1 or two PKs per round if they can't keep out of his way), or a party of clerics (better hope they can summon something), it seems like the fighter party is one of the better unbalanced parties you could come up with.

The SR is exactly where it should be for CR. It does not marginalize L21 wizards, clerics or sorcerers at all.

The SR marginalizes casters at least as much as the DR marginalizes fighters. That's what SR is supposed to do: marginalize spellcasters. (Being "where it should be" for CR just means it doesn't marginalize them quite as much as it could--SR is not a standard feature of all CR X creatures). And if they need four feats and a 30 prime attribute to even have a 20% chance of effecting the Titan with a 9th level spell targetting his weak save, I think that constitutes marginalization--especially for sorcerors and clerics for whom the four feats would represent over 50% of their total number of feats.

Are you REALLY claiming that a rogue's value should be measured by his melee combat potential? (Hint: A L21 rogue will be REAL good at helping the party avoid or ambush the titan, or probably about 200 other things that are vastly more effective that sticking a titan with a short pointy blade)

Well, since this is a discussion about the combat effectiveness of the creature, it seems to me that the rogue's combat ability is quite relevant. After all, rogues aren't supposed to be a class that doesn't contribute in combat.

About a week ago you were complaining the fights were to short.
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52931
Now you are saying that a creature is to powerful when the number show that it might lst more than 3 rounds, when the deck is stacked completely in its favor.

I think you misinterpreted my question on the thread. I wasn't complaining that battles last only a couple rounds; I was simply wondering how it is that other peoples' experiences differ so markedly from mine. The four round battle I ran a few weeks ago had plenty of twists and turns in it (and nobody was even using Haste). Actually, I think it's generally a very good thing that fights are usually short--especially considering the 3.5e changes which make it much harder for PCs to amass adequate defenses. Given the amount of offense that D&D monsters have, long battles generally result in dead or very nearly dead PCs. This is even more true in encounters with a single creature. (A group of slightly weaker creatures will often last longer than a single tough creature). If the titan lasts more than four rounds, for instance, the fighter is almost certainly dead.

Nor am I committing myself to the position that the Titan is necessarily too powerful. I'm just committing myself to the position that its DR is a very significant factor and that its design minimizes the effectiveness of nearly every class's combat abilities. It doesn't look like a fun monster to fight. Whether it would take more than 20% of the resources of a 21st level party is another question. Although I suspect that a 21st level party might look to be on its last legs if it had to take on 5 of these Titans spaced 4.2 hours apart.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

B) Did I fail to make clear that I wasn't commenting on the DR issue at all, but was disputing Olgar's contention that "sometimes you have to run away" as applied to threats of CR/ELs equal to the party's level? If so, let's try this phrasing: I have no opinion on whether or not a titan's DR would make it too challenging for its CR. Haven't played it out, so can't comment.

I think you're right here; we can hope -- we won't know until we see the books, really -- that the DR given to a monster of a given CR also correspond to the levels that a party could be reasonably assumed to possess the weapons needed to overcome that DR (or have access to the appropriate spells, or sufficient feats to overcome the damage, or whatever).

For example: Monks get the adamantine equivalent at 16th level; I'd expect that most creatures with DR x/adamantine begin appearing no earlier than CR 14 or so.

Ironically, this leaves us in the same boat as 3.0 -- if an appropriate CR level challenge is matched in DR to what a party may have available, then DR is essentially irrelevant except for flavor text (unless the party simply fails to prepare, which could be all kinds of fun in and of itself). DR of higher level (CR well above party level) critters becomes the indicator to withdraw until the party is better prepared.

This does put a bit more onus on the DM to carefully consider encounters -- there are a few more variables invovled now from a DR standpoint.

From a flavor standpoint I think its an improvement, since it puts more value on special weapons and materials. Mechanically, I suspect that what looks troubling at first may eventually be a wash.

 

[MerricB]

Why would a demon have a DR against evil? I thought the concept of the aligned DR was that only pure and holy weapons could harm them, and thus the DRs would be like 5/holy.

Oops, my mistake: I meant 10/good.

That means their natural weapons will overcome */good DR, and according to their text, also */chaotic and */evil DR (for the devils; */lawful and */evil for the demons).

Psion, although the weapon descriptor is "holy", the DR code is "good". The "holy" weapons will deal "good-aligned damage", no doubt. (Remember, the Pit Fiend was an early draft).

For example: Monks get the adamantine equivalent at 16th level; I'd expect that most creatures with DR x/adamantine begin appearing no earlier than CR 14 or so.

Adamantine is the DR possessed by Golems. CR 7 and up. It is also what stoneskin confers.

Cheers!

 

[BryonD]

EB,

I have not seen you express the slightest positive comment on anything yet. I do not expect you to start now.

All you have pointed out is that MAYBE the deck is slightly less stacked in the titan's favor in the 4 round death scenario than I claimed. Which would mean the titan is closer to correct CR than to underpowered. (Hint: I thought that all along)

Anyway, I am not interested in slugging the tar baby.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Adamantine is the DR possessed by Golems. CR 7 and up. It is also what stoneskin confers.

Cheers!

I hope adamantite is either really uncommon or a DR the PCs aren't really supposed to beat then. The monks biggest failing IMO was that at mid levelsish his already lmited combat skill was reduced further by DR. The monk as a whopping 3 things he can penetrate, he may be futily flailing away more often than i like.

Were's and fey can beocme a bigger problem than they should anything that requires an alignment other than lawful also. Sure yeah they can buy there silver plated, holy, staff of doom but that defeats the feel of the monk as master unarmed guy IMO.

Without seeing the MM its all conecture, but the monk might not be much better off than he was in 3e vs DR and he sucked hard there until those magic fang items came out.

 

[Celtavian]

First, you are completely correct.

Second, the complaint is way overstated.

Fighter 21:

BAB +20
+5 Sword
+6 Str bonus (easily start with STR 18 add +1 at 4 levels)
+3 Str Enhancement (+6 Belt is totally reasonable for a L21 fighter)
+2 Greater Weapon Focus

= +36 to hit

Titan AC = 38. Primary attack hits unless you roll a 1.
Assume just a +5 longsword.

1d8 = 4.5
+5 (sword)
+4 (greater spec)
+9 (STR)
-15 (DR)
= 7.5 points of damage per hit.

1st attack hits 95%
2nd attack hits 70%
3rd attack hits 45%
4th attack hits 20%

So neglecting crits, you get 17 points of damage in per round on average.

Now add in that a L21 fighter WILL have improved crit.
His first attack has a 19% chance of being a crit.
Average crit damage = 45-15 = 30 points.


Now grab a 2hander and power attack for 5 points.
70% hit for 1d12(6.5)+5(enhance)+4(greater spec)+ 13(Str) +10(PA)- 15 is still nice. = 18.5 points damage PER hit.

7% crit rate for 3d12+96-15 = 100 points of damage.

So, the bottom line to me is that while the fighter does have the proverbial one arm tied behind his back he is FAR from useless. Any claim that he is useless is a knee-jerk response without any serious analysis. And there SHOULD be opponents that marginalize fighters. Just as there should be opponents that marginalize wizards (constructs, etc) and marginalize rogues (undead, constructs, oozes).

It is not nearly as bad as claimed AND it is a GOOD thing.

Why in your analysis do you not account for the damage the Titan will do to the fighter? If you are going to create an analysis that looks at what a single fighter can do to a Titan, then take into account what a single Titan can do against the fighter.

You can even go so far as to incorporate the simple tactic of backing out of the fighters reach each round so that the Titan can gain an extra attack of opportunity, which almost every DM who has any knowledge of tactics will use to give the big monster an advantage.

I don't think everyone should be able to penetrate the DR of a Titan. I do believe that it certainly makes the fight a good deal harder if not one person can penetrate the DR to do subsantial damage.

You also fail to take into account that alignment DR will push people towards alignments that don't limit their ability to kill creatures. I don't like this from a story development standpoint, but you are refusing to see the possibility.