D&D 3E/3.5 [3.5] Standing up from prone draws AoOs?

[Pielorinho]

Ray of Enfeeblement! No save!
Trip me now, weaking! MUHUHAHAHAHahack hack *cough* can I have a glass of water please...

Good gravy! I didn't realize about how good Power attack was with this combo. So, in exchange for a (to be pessimistic) 20% chance of losing an attack, I can add +8 damage to every attack I hit with in the round -- PLUS I can give all my allies a +4 to hit you, PLUS I seriously diminish your own combat abilities. Sweet.

Ray of enfeeblement? Dang! Now I only have a +17-+19 to trip your scrawny wizard butt.

There are ways to overcome this tactic, but Ray of Enfeeblement is not high amongst them.

Daniel

 

[Tellerve]

I still wanna see this tripping build, but I guess you can show me tonight at the game.

If it is what I think it is, dispel magic. Mhmmm useful spell.

Tellerve

 

[Pielorinho]

Daniel how'd you get +22? I'm assuming your using some cleric build to get righteous might or something.

Nope -- search this thread for "Dire Ape" for the build. You can add in other things (bull's strength, for example) to get it higher, but +22 can be achieved with two spells, one special ability, and a couple of feats. The character is also useful is lots of other circumstances, so this isn't a super-specialized build.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

re: Dispel magic on the Dire Ape build: if everything gets dispelled, the ape can still be trippin' at a +14 bonus. Not nearly as good, but it can be nice against some opponents -- and the ape always has the option to continue fighting with other techniques, at which it'll be reasonably effective.

Daniel

 

[Lab Monkey]

A few things that haven't been mentioned.

AoOs are resolved before the action that provoked them. For instance, if you cast a spell without casting defensively and while standing in an opponents threatened square, you provoke an AoO. If successful, you may lose the spell. Thus the AoO is resolved before the action that provoked it is resolved.

With standing up from prone, yes, it provokes an AoO, and that could be used to trip an opponent. However, the act of standing up isn't resolved until the AoO is resolved. Ergo I start to get up, you trip me and then I resolve my action and finish standing up. No unlimited trip, attack, AoO trip, attack sequences allowed. Using trip attacking an prone opponent is a waste of an attack.

Also, tripping is an unarmed attack unless you have a weapon specifically designed to aid in tripping. Of the reach weapons, only 3 core weapons allow this: spiked chain, whip and guisarme. So the longspear example given earlier doesn't work.

So yes, tripping is much more powerful than it was in 3.0. However, it still takes 2-4 feats to do this effectively (Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Imp. Trip and EWP, Spiked Chain), you do risk being countertriped on a failed attempt, and many oppenents are going to be very resistant to this attack (large enemies, enemies with more than 2 legs, those pesky dwarves, etc.).

 

[Spatula]

Fourth, we are talking a huge oppurtunity cost. At mid to higher levels, a fighter with his first attack goes through most AC's like butter. So he is giving up a lot of damage- for the "potential" of dealing more damage and putting the opponent at a disadvantage. Its a gamble, and if you want people to gamble, the reward has to justify the risk.

The best opportunity for the trip monkey to use trip isn't on its first attack out of a full attack sequence, it's on AoOs. Which is handy, since the good tripping weapons are reach weapons, and you're going to get AoOs against most opponents without reach when using one. If the trip works, you get a free attack AND the target can't do much of anything without provoking another AoO (the trip monkey has Combat Reflexes, of course). Stand up? AoO. Move forward/away while prone? AoO.

Barring the movement-related AoO, there's not much reason to use your first attack as a trip, since as you note it's probably going to hit anyway. The initial trip is a touch attack and your attack bonus doesn't affect the opposed roll, so you can save the trip attempt for one of your lesser attacks.

 

[GamerGeek]

The new trip AoO rule gets real fun if you have a guy using the Knockdown feat from Sword and Fist.

Stay Down.

Thing to remember is, the whole trip thing really only applys to medium humanoids. Anything else will just stay up and laugh. In D&D, you fight a whole bunch of crap that isnt a medium humanoid.

You will, however, tear the ass off of a medium humanoid every damn time.

 

[Tellerve]

ahh the dire ape build. I do think that is pretty twiggy of a build, but I agree it would work. Although if I recall that build had you wanting a sorcerer or wizard of some sorts near you didn't it? Or was that just for the extra umph that they could provide?

Tellerve

EDIT: ooh, that's a most excellent point about the AoO being figured out before the action that provoked it is finished. Therefore a prone opponent getting up isn't able to be tripped again 'cause he's already down. neat

 

[Pielorinho]

ahh the dire ape build. I do think that is pretty twiggy of a build, but I agree it would work. Although if I recall that build had you wanting a sorcerer or wizard of some sorts near you didn't it? Or was that just for the extra umph that they could provide?

Tellerve

You only really need it so that you can get the huge spiked chain. If equipment resizes to stay with you, you don't need the sorcerer. And even without the spiked chain, you still get +22 to your trip attacks -- you just lose the 30' reach.

Daniel

 

[Spatula]

AoOs are resolved before the action that provoked them. For instance, if you cast a spell without casting defensively and while standing in an opponents threatened square, you provoke an AoO. If successful, you may lose the spell. Thus the AoO is resolved before the action that provoked it is resolved.

Yes, and the outcome of the AoO affects the resolution of the action that provoked it. If you try to stand up and I knock you down, then you didn't succeed at standing up.