5E: Converting Monsters from White Dwarf Magazine for Fifth Edition

Casimir Liber · Dec 26, 2022

Cleon said:
Dang it, I'm going to start statting them up in a table.

Can always consider it a Cleon Special if we don't use the resulting Dragon Warriors.

No no, they are definitely close enough to be aligned with the original concept, just a question of how we decide on a short-lived non-intelligent/long-lived sentient dischotomy.

I can live without shields too, for that matter.

Cleon · Dec 27, 2022

ilgatto said:
Quick note coz I also have to go. What about the gold dragon's gas breath weapon, which also inflicts damage (in 2E at least)?

One thing at a time, I hadn't finished updating it before the pub beckoned.

The (damage) is the Damage Immunity of the Dragon Warrior which matches the damage type of the dragon's lethal Breath Weapon (the standard 5E Dragons each only have one damaging breath weapon, the Metallics have two breath weapons like in earlier editions but the other breath causes some nonlethal debilitating effect, such as slow or paralysis, depending on the dragon).

If we give the Warriors some kind of distance attack it'll presumably have the same Damage type, so a Gold Dragon Warrior would spit fire. Haven't decided whether Metallic Dragon Warriors would also have two types of "Dragon Spit" like their equivalent dragons have two Breath Weapon options.

ilgatto · Dec 27, 2022

Cleon said:
One thing at a time, I hadn't finished updating it before the pub beckoned.

The (damage) is the Damage Immunity of the Dragon Warrior which matches the damage type of the dragon's lethal Breath Weapon (the standard 5E Dragons each only have one damaging breath weapon, the Metallics have two breath weapons like in earlier editions but the other breath causes some nonlethal debilitating effect, such as slow or paralysis, depending on the dragon).

If we give the Warriors some kind of distance attack it'll presumably have the same Damage type, so a Gold Dragon Warrior would spit fire. Haven't decided whether Metallic Dragon Warriors would also have two types of "Dragon Spit" like their equivalent dragons have two Breath Weapon options.

Ah! Sorry about the breath thing. Bit of an off-the-cuff remark without having checked the 5E MM (did add the 2E remark just to be on the safe side).

re ranged attacks: That wouldn't be my preference by, hey, its 5E and I've noticed other liberties taken in earlier conversions so I wouldn't really mind. In fact, I'd be quite interested to see how that'll work vis-a-vis CR.

That said, I'd say that giving them some sort of breath weapon would, perhaps, be a little over the top? I'd sooner go for some weapon, such as a javelin, for which Spartans were famous (if memory serves).

edit: A breath weapon would be nicely in line with your desire to make them Monstrosities, of course.

Cleon · Dec 27, 2022

Casimir Liber said:
No no, they are definitely close enough to be aligned with the original concept, just a question of how we decide on a short-lived non-intelligent/long-lived sentient dischotomy.

I'm not that hung up on that distinction. Even "mindless" creatures have an Intelligence score in 5E, there is no such thing as an INT 0, INT — or "Intelligence: Non-" monster like there was in previous editions.

Consider the Skeleton example I mentioned earlier. In AD&D those are completely mindless non-intelligent beings, but in 5E they have INT 6.

So we can use existing 5E precedents to give our Dragon Warriors (including the ones the fangs of wondrous power create) a token INT score.

For that matter, the use of "create" is clearly in reference to them being produced by a magic item, which does not mean it has to be a construct.

In 5E the closest equivalent magic item is a figurine of wondrous power, but those to not create constructs, the figurine becomes a magical flesh-and-blood creature under the command of its activater. A serpentine owl, for example, has all the attributes of a Giant Owl when in bird form, including its beast type. The only difference between the two creatures is a serpentine owl can telepathically communicate with whoever activates the figurine.

If you want to incorporate some of the Argonaut mythology in the Description it makes WAY more sense having the Dragon Warriors be living beings, either Humanoid or Monstrosity, and I think you already know which of those two I prefer!

Cleon · Dec 27, 2022

Cleon said:
Dragon Warrior
Medium monstrosity, neutral
Armor Class [see below](natural armor)
Hit Points [see below]
Speed 30 ft.

Dragon Warriors Statistics Table

Type
AC
Hit Points
STR
DEX
CON
INT
WIS
CHA
Challenge
Black
15
## (##d8+##)
## (+4)
14 (+2)
## (+2)
3 (–4)
## (+#)
## (+#)
3 (700 XP)
Blue
18
## (##d8+##)
## (+4)
10 (+0)
## (+3)
4 (–3)
## (+#)
## (+#)
4 (1,100 XP)
Green
17
## (##d8+##)
## (+4)
12 (+1)
## (+2)
6 (–2)
## (+#)
## (+#)
4 (1,100 XP)
Red
19
## (##d8+##)
## (+4)
10 (+0)
## (+3)
5 (–3)
## (+#)
## (+#)
5 (1,800 XP)
White
15
## (##d8+##)
## (+4)
10 (+0)
## (+3)
1 (–5)
## (+#)
## (+#)
3 (700 XP)
Brass
16
65 (10d8+20)
## (+4)
10 (+0)
## (+2)
3 (–4)
## (+#)
## (+#)
3 (700 XP)
Bronze
18
65 (10d8+20)
## (+4)
10 (+0)
## (+2)
4 (–3)
## (+#)
## (+#)
4 (1,100 XP)
Copper
17
65 (10d8+20)
## (+4)
10 (+0)
## (+2)
6 (–2)
## (+#)
## (+#)
3 (700 XP)
Gold
20
75 (10d8+30)
18 (+4)
14 (+2)
17 (+3)
5 (–3)
## (+#)
## (+#)
5 (1,800 XP)
Silver
19
65 (10d8+20)
## (+4)
12 (+1)
## (+2)
4 (–3)
## (+#)
## (+#)
4 (1,100 XP)

Saving Throws [proficient in DEX, CON, WIS, CHA like parent dragon?]
Skills Perception +#, Stealth? +# [?]
Damage Immunities acid if black or copper; cold if silver or white; fire if brass, gold or red; lightning if blue or bronze; poison if green
Condition Immunities charmed, frightened, paralyzed; poisoned if green
Senses blindsight 10 ft., darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception ##
Languages Understands Common, Draconic but can't speak
Challenge 3 (700 XP) if black, brass, copper or white; 4 (1,100 XP) if blue, bronze, green or silver; 5(1,800) if gold or red
Proficiency Bonus +3 if gold or red; otherwise +2

Special Trait. ???.

Special Trait. ???.

Dragon Warriors Combat Table

Type
To Hit
Longsword
Lethal Spit
Metal Spit
Black
+6
9 (1d10+4 slashing?)
## (#d# acid)
—
Blue
+6
9 (1d10+4 slashing?)
## (#d# lightning)
—
Green
+6
9 (1d10+4 slashing?)
## (#d# poison)
—
Red
+7
9 (1d10+4 slashing?)
## (#d# fire)
—
White
+6
9 (1d10+4 slashing?)
## (#d# cold)
—
Brass
+6
2×9 (1d10+4 slashing)
## (#d# fire)
DC## (sleep)
Bronze
+6
3×9 (1d10+4 slashing)
## (#d# lightning)
DC## (slowed)
Copper
+6
2×9 (1d10+4 slashing)
## (#d# acid)
DC## (repulsion)
Gold
+7
3×9 (1d10+4 slashing)
## (#d# fire)
DC## (paralyzed)
Silver
+6
3×9 (1d10+4 slashing)
## (#d# cold)
DC## (weakened)

Actions

Multiattack. The ??? makes ??? attacks: ??? with its ??? and ??? with its ???.

Attack. Melee Weapon Attack: +# to hit, reach # ft., one target. Hit: # (#d# + #) ??? damage.

Attack. Ranged Weapon Attack: +# to hit, range ##/## ft., one target. Hit: # (#d# + #) ??? damage.

Action (#/day). ???.
???.

Action (Recharge 5-6 | Recharges After a Short/Long Rest). ???.
???.

Bonus Actions

Bonus. ???.
???.

Reactions

Reaction. ???.
???.

Okay, I've finished a first draft of the Dragon Warriors Table.

I think rather than the Languages Common, Draconic of the generic Dragon Warrior I posted it makes more sense that it can understand those tongues (since they're the standard languages known by a 5E dragon) but be unable to speak them. That's similar to the language ability of the Giant Owl and Skeleton mentioned above.

I've run some numbers through the CR Calculator and if we give it two or three attacks per round with a Longsword it was pretty easy to fit the Metallic Dragon Warriors into a Challenge Rating 3 to 5 spread with a 1-point AC graduation between each "adjacent rank" of dragon like is used in AD&D.

1st Edition
Brass AC 2, HD 6-8
Copper AC 1, HD 7-9
Bronze AC 0, HD 8-10
Silver AC -1, HD 9-11
Gold AC -2, HD 10-12

The power progression of Metallics is the same in 5E. A Brass Ancient Dragon is Challenge 20 and each rank of metal is one CR higher, so Brass/Copper/Bronze/Silver/Gold are CR 20/21/22/23/24, and their AC also progresses in a similar fashion at first with Brass/Copper/Bronze having AC 20/21/22 but then it caps out with the Silver and Gold also having AC 22:

Brass Ancient AC 20, 297 hp (17d20+119)[CON 25], Challenge 20
Copper Ancient AC 21, 350 hp (20d20+140)[CON 25], Challenge 21
Bronze Ancient AC 22, 444 hp (24d20+192)[CON 27], Challenge 22
Silver Ancient AC 22, 487 hp (25d20+225)[CON 29], Challenge 23
Gold Ancient AC 22, 546 hp (28d20+252)[CON 29], Challenge 24

However, I'm having a bit of a problem fitting the Chromatic Dragon Warriors into such a neat progression.

In 1E AD&D the Chromatic Dragons have a similar AC progression as Metallics but go half as fast, taking two "ranks" for a 1-point AC increase, but then the Red Dragon jumps three points of AC:

White AC 3, HD 5-7
Black AC 3, HD 6-8
Green AC 2, HD 7-9
Blue AC 2, HD 8-10
Red AC -1, HD 9-11

However, in 5E the Chromatics advance slightly differently, as follows:

White Ancient AC 20, 333 hp (18d20+144)[CON 26], Challenge 20
Black Ancient AC 22, 367 hp (21d20+147)[CON 25], Challenge 21
Green Ancient AC 21, 385 hp (22d20+154)[CON 25], Challenge 22
Blue Ancient AC 22, 481 hp (26d20+208)[CON 27], Challenge 23
Red Ancient AC 22, 546 hp (28d20+252)[CON 29], Challenge 24

Note the AC order goes White/Green/Black-Blue-Red with the 5E Black Dragon having as good an AC as a Red despite being second lowest on the pecking order?

So do I have the Chromatic Dragon Warriors ACs zig-zag around like the above, should I use the slow progression with a BIG jump at Red like in 1E, or follow the more even AC progression of the 2E and 3E Chromatic Dragons? If I was to go, say:

White Warrior AC 16
Black Warrior AC 18
Green Warrior AC 17
Blue Warrior AC 19
Red Warrior AC 20

That sort-of follows the 5E progression but seems a bit… unsatisfactory. I also would probably have to have the hit points fluctuate oddly if I want to follow the Challenge 3/3/4/4/5 in the table.

If we want the Chromatic Warriors to have inferior AC to the Metallics, it could be something like this:

White Warrior AC 16
Black Warrior AC 16
Green Warrior AC 17
Blue Warrior AC 17
Red Warrior AC 19

That's pretty close to the 1E progression.

We'd need to give the Chromatic Warriors a bit more HP than the Metallics OR slightly higher damage output, but that matches up with the Chromatic Wyrmlings having more HD and higher Challenge than the Metallic Wyrmlings.

I'm leaning towards using that approach.

Another question.

In Fifth Edition the Chromatic Dragons add a bit of special damage to their bites (i.e. a Green Dragon does piercing plus poison, a Red Dragon piercing plus fire, and so on) while Metallic Dragons only do piercing with their fangs.

So should we add some energy damage to their Longsword attacks, effectively treating them as a flaming/venomous/icy/whatever weapon.

I'm also wondering about having the Chromatics do a bit more damage but have fewer attacks (i.e. two sword attacks at CR 4 and 5 instead of the three sword attacks I'm giving the Metallics.)

If a Red Dragon Warrior did, say 1d10+7 slashing plus 1d6 fire with its Longsword and could attack twice with Multiattack then it'd still be CR 5 like a Gold Warrior and be a bit more distinctive, substituting increased damage per attack for a greater number of attacks.

EDIT: IIRC Ilgatto mainly runs 2E, in which the core dragons are:

Chromatics
White AC 1 (base), HD 11 (base)
Black AC 1 (base), HD 12 (base)
Green AC 0 (base), HD 13 (base)
Blue AC 0 (base), HD 14 (base)
Red AC –3 (base), HD 15 (base)

Metallics
Brass AC 0 (base), HD 12 (base)
Copper AC 1 (base), HD 13 (base)
Bronze AC –2 (base), HD 14 (base)
Silver AC –3 (base), HD 15 (base)
Gold AC –4 (base), HD 16 (base)

Notice they have the 1E one HD difference between ranks but the HD are higher, also the Armour progression of the Chromatics is similar, with White & Black having the same AC, one lower than Blue & Green, and Reds are three higher than them.

However, the Metallics have one oddity in 2E. The Copper Dragon has the worst AC among them, not the Brass Dragon like in other editions. Since all the 2E standard Dragons apart from the Copper have base Armour Classes two points better than the AC of their 1E counterparts, I can't help wondering if they just forgot to put a minus sign there and 2E Coppers were meant to have base AC –1 instead of 1. That'd follow the precedent set by 1E.

Oh, the base Hit Dice of these 2E Dragons is five more than the average HD of their First Edition version. e.g. Black Dragons are 6-8 HD in 1E, for 7 HD for an average sized specimen; add 5 HD and you get the HD 12 (base) of a 2E Black.

Cleon · Dec 27, 2022

ilgatto said:
Ah! Sorry about the breath thing. Bit of an off-the-cuff remark without having checked the 5E MM (did add the 2E remark just to be on the safe side).

re ranged attacks: That wouldn't be my preference by, hey, its 5E and I've noticed other liberties taken in earlier conversions so I wouldn't really mind. In fact, I'd be quite interested to see how that'll work vis-a-vis CR.

That said, I'd say that giving them some sort of breath weapon would, perhaps, be a little over the top? I'd sooner go for some weapon, such as a javelin, for which Spartans were famous (if memory serves).

edit: A breath weapon would be nicely in line with your desire to make them Monstrosities, of course.

Let's forget about the "Spit Weapon" idea and approach them as Gladiator-type melee combatants, as that seems to be closer to the original concept.

For a start, it means we won't have to worry about whether the Metallics would have some version of the source dragon's nonlethal Breath Weapon, which if my back-of-an-envelope guesstimate is correct could easily bump them up a Challenge Rating and throw off all my calculations!

Javelins? It's a possibility, or we just leave them melee only like the original.

Or they're secretly Dragon Ninja Warriors and throw their scales as shuriken…

Cleon · Dec 28, 2022

Okay, updated the Dragon Warriors Table with all the numbers figured out.

I tried using Brute for the Red Warrior which just squeezed into Challenge 5, but felt it had too high a slashing to fire damage ratio and increasing the fire damage pushed it into Challenge 6.

Brute (Red Dragon Warrior Only). A melee weapon deals one extra die of its damage when the red dragon warrior hits with it (included in the attack).

Longsword (Chromatic Red Dragon Warrior). Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d8 + 4) slashing damage plus 3 (1d6) fire damage, or 15 (2d10 + 4) slashing damage plus 3 (1d6) fire damage if used with two hands.

Another quirk is I had to give the Silver Dragon Warrior lower Hit Points than the Bronze to avoid nudging into Challenge 5.

I'm wondering about making the Silver Challenge 5 by increasing its Hit Points to 10d8+30 and increasing the Gold Dragon Warrior to Challenge 6 (2,300 XP)? We could do that by increasing its Hit Points to 90 (12d8 + 36) and boosting its damage a bit. Maybe:

Draconscale Weapon Master (Gold Dragon Warrior Only). A dragonscale weapon deals 3 (1d6) extra damage when the dragon warrior hits with it (included in the attack).

Longsword (Metallic Gold Dragon Warrior). Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (1d8 + 1d6 + 4) slashing damage, or 13 (1d10 + 1d6 + 4) slashing damage if used with two hands.

Come to think of it, that's a better solution than Brute or a Greatsword for the Red Dragon Warrior and could be repurposed for other Dragon Warriors by modifying the size of the "mastery dice".

Draconscale Weapon Master (Gold or Red Dragon Warriors Only). A dragonscale weapon deals 3 (1d6) extra damage when the dragon warrior hits with it (included in the attack).

Longsword (Chromatic Red Dragon Warrior). Melee Weapon Attack: +7 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 12 (1d8 + 1d6 + 4) slashing damage plus 5 (2d4) fire damage, or 13 (1d10 + 1d6 + 4) slashing damage plus 5 (2d4) fire damage if used with two hands.

Updating the Dragon Warriors Table.

Anyhow, it's time for bed so g'night!

Cleon · Dec 28, 2022