A letter in Dragon Magazine

[Arnwyn]

Written by a woman talked about women in gaming. She seems to think women are treated differently in D&D by the writers and gamers alike. According to her some male gamers treat them badly. Is her feelings founded? I didn't the women I've gamed with were treated poorly.

Wild conjecture as I have no statistical demographic information to base my hypothesis on:

I suspect that women in gaming would be treated no differently than if they were the few female members of an almost all-male baseball league, an almost all-male running club, or an almost all-male social organization of any other sort. (And it might be thought of as "badly" because they may have different expectations of treatment than the majority is used to and/or willing to give.)

I'm unsure if "gaming" has anything to do with it.

 

[The_Universe]

When a group of guys treat another guy badly, there's usually two reasons: The group of guys are jerks, or the target is a jerk.

Now that's not true. If guys "treat" you at all, it's probably because they like you. Guys tend to show affection by being jerks to each other. It's weird, but it's the truth. I used to great one of my best friends in college by saying, "You're stupid, we hate you, and you're stupid." If a guy doesn't *like* another guy, they just avoid each other.

At least in my experience.

 

[Aeson]

Just yesterday, I stopped by my local game shop to look at the DMG2. In the back was a group of folks organizing for some kind of card game tournament. [Who has a tournament a 5:30 on a Thursday?] There were about 6 guys and 1 girl. The girl was wearing a black sports-bra-type top, with no real bra underneath. Completely inappropriate for anywhere but a pool or a gym. Wonder if she was treated differently than the guys? Would it be her fault or the sexist-pig guys?

Quasqueton

Teenagers would have a tourny at that time. If the guys there are anything like the ones I've seen in card tournys here they would not treat her poorly they would be too nervous and distracted which I think was her reason for dressing that way. Its her fault for what happens to a point. People should be able to control themselves keeping their thoughts and hands to themselves. She should not dress like that.

 

[HellHound]

Yeah, it was something to see

We were all Goths, so there wasn't a lot to explain which was nice

I do miss the days when black clothing, white faces, tattoos and body piercing were the standard for my gaming groups. Vampire is what got Denise (the uber-goth in my life) back into gaming. She had quit playing AD&D around the time that Unearthed Arcana was released, played a few games with my OD&D group that met weekly at the all-you-can-eat Pizza Hut (all you can eat pizza from 4 pm to 10 pm eh? Ok... we'll arrive at 3:30, order pitchers of drinks, and game until 10:00 - the pizza hut was really cool and it got to the point where they would hold our table for us and twice we even got dice back that we had lost the previous week), but finally came into the fold for Vampire. How couldn't she get hooked on Vampire? She was a role-model of gothness in our area - people would call her up out of the blue to ask what clothes they should be buying because they had just arrived in Montreal and discovered the cool stores there, and so on...

 

[HellHound]

I was once in a gaming group consisting of mostly women. 6 or 7 people.

The game was odd, because sex and having children seemed to be a big part of their game. With the guys I gamed with before we NEVER had characters with children.

Interesting experience... I've had the opposite, myself.

The only game I've played in that involved characters with children was an all-male game of Pendragon - since we were knights and landowners, it was important to have heirs to our lands and titles.

 

[Quasqueton]

Guys tend to show affection by being jerks to each other. It's weird, but it's the truth. I used to great one of my best friends in college by saying, "You're stupid, we hate you, and you're stupid."

Possibly for guys under 25. I'm closing on 40, and if a friend said that to me, I'd respond, "If you mean that, I'll leave. If you don't mean it, don't say it."

Sure, there's the occassional, "You suck!" when someone takes a strategic territory in Risk, or something. Or the occassional calling of "B---h" to emphasize a statement. But there is rarely flat out insults and verbal assaults among friends I would hang with.

Quasqueton

 

[The_Universe]

Possibly for guys under 25. I'm closing on 40, and if a friend said that to me, I'd respond, "If you mean that, I'll leave. If you don't mean it, don't say it."

Sure, there's the occassional, "You suck!" when someone takes a strategic territory in Risk, or something. Or the occassional calling of "B---h" to emphasize a statement. But there is rarely flat out insults and verbal assaults among friends I would hang with.

Quasqueton

Maybe we're jerks then. But methinks you're just a little oversensitive. Sheesh.

 

[Quasqueton]

Maybe we're jerks then. But methinks you're just a little oversensitive. Sheesh.

Over sensitive? Double sheesh.

Make that statement as the first reply (the "greet") on any thread in any forum of this board. See what the response is from the poster and from the mods.

I once knew some guys (in college) who really disliked another guy that constantly came over to their house. They berated and insulted him constantly. They thought it hilarious that he would take it all thinking they were just joking around with him. I asked them why they let him come over all the time if they hated him so. "'Cause it's fun. He's an idiot."

I knew some other guys whose idea of joking around with each other was constantly trying to kick or punch either other in the groin. I didn't hang around with them much or long, for fear of being brought into their "friendship".

I don't care for "negative" friendships.

Quasqueton

 

[Rel]

On the one hand there is the sex thing (we can probably do without the obvious jokes that this sentence raises). The fact is that men and women sometimes like each other and sometimes they like each other in that very special way. Girls are great. Gamers are great. Girl Gamers are really great and my wife is one so I know what I'm talking about.

If a girl gamer joins a group then there is a good chance that one of the guys in said group is looking for a relationship and some overtures are likely to be made. This is just the way of the world and there is nothing wrong with it. Women might say, "look I didn't join this gaming group to get hit on." That's fine but irrelevant. You might not have gone out to a dance club or the grocery store to get hit on either but a guy there might find you attractive and ask you out regardless. If you say "No" and he persists then he's a jerk but that's beside the point. In life there will be folks who find you attractive and make advances. It's a compliment so just accept it as such and move on.

Another thing that I think can be a contributing factor is that many (if not most) guys in gaming have seen a woman come into the game who was less interested in the actual gaming and more interested in being there with her boyfriend/husband. Whether this was a matter of just wanting to be able to spend more time with him or trying to control him or (in the worst cases) seeking to poison the group so that it will disband and she can extract her man from the hobby, she was clearly not all that interested in actual gaming.

As a result many guys might have some suspicions that a female gamer entering the group could have other motives besides gaming. Compounding this, because girl gamers may have been treated this way, they might have a chip on their shoulder about it. This is a very fragile situation.

So, coming from a guy, my advice to girl gamers would be this: Try and be tollerant. Expect that upon entering a new group that somebody might hit on you. Be good natured but firm in whatever your desires are regarding this. It's a compliment, not harassment in most cases. Show your interest in the game. When you start quoting rules or engaging in good roleplaying the guys will probably get over any hangups or preconceptions that they might have. Eventually everybody will sort things out and you'll all just be killing things and taking their stuff the way God intended it.

 

[mojo1701]

Another thing that I think can be a contributing factor is that many (if not most) guys in gaming have seen a woman come into the game who was less interested in the actual gaming and more interested in being there with her boyfriend/husband. Whether this was a matter of just wanting to be able to spend more time with him or trying to control him or (in the worst cases) seeking to poison the group so that it will disband and she can extract her man from the hobby, she was clearly not all that interested in actual gaming.

I call this the "Yoko Ono Scenario."