A letter in Dragon Magazine

[Aeson]

One of the primary reasons for asking was I introduced my cousin to D&D not long ago. At the time she was the only girl in the group and was nervous. I went to recruiting other girls so she wouldn't be alone.

Like I said before I had not witnessed just heard of women not being treated well. I was a little concerned she would branch out and find a bad group.

 

[Chimera]

My experience with five women who've played in my groups over the years;

D1 only played because it was a social event. She didn't pay much attention to the game and didn't like it when bad things happened to her character. She eventually decided that she'd rather watch TV while we gamed. I respect that, I respect her. She wasn't a hardcore gamer and wasn't really into the game.

D2 was a fairly active part of the game, but never in the forefront. Sometimes she wandered off to talk to D1 instead of gaming. As the years progressed, she played less and less. Same as above, not a big deal.

K played in one game I ran. She didn't have a lot of experience when she started and seemed to be a bit buried by a combination of personal reserve and the... 'game enthusiasm' of the male players. I noticed this and made more of an effort to include her and make some of the game be about her character. She responded and played very well.

L is the wife of one of my GMs. Plays reasonably well, but seems to think that her husband should give her breaks, threatening out-of-game retaliation if he doesn't. Got to the point where one of their long time friends and fellow players threatened to walk out if it happened again. Hopefully she got the message. (Especially after her character was killed at the end of the last session.)

K is the girlfriend of my other GM. Roleplays very well and is an active part of the game. There have been no issues at all with her gender.

Having played short-term and at Cons with a few other women, I can say that I've only experienced problems when;
1> The women demand special treatment because they are women, or because of a
relationship with the GM. No. Play under the same rules as me or take a hike.
2> The women are attention hogs and aren't really playing the game.
3> Some small percentage of men have problems interacting with women.
This is their problem and I won't tolerate it at my game table.

 

[The_Universe]

I feel that friendship lies somewhere between, "You're stupid, we hate you, and you're stupid" and "hand-holding and compliments".

You have gone from saying, "Guys tend to show affection by being jerks to each other...." and "I used to great one of my best friends in college by saying..." to "a playful insult among friends". It's like you are toning down your statements to make them seem less jerkish.

Quasqueton

Not at all. What I'm saying is that though they very well *might* seem "jerkish" to outsiders with little experience in what I consider a normal friendship, but are nonetheless par for the course for most platonic male/male relationships I have encountered. The fact that I actually *did* say "You're stupid, and we hate you, and you're stupid" and that it was nonetheless friendly seems to have been lost on you.

I also refer to my skinny friends as "fat b-stards," among other things, regularly and viciously insult their mothers' virtue(s), and proclaim my intent to kick their asses with little provocation. They do the same in return. Strangely, none of them have developed eating disorders, a need for psychological treatment, or the desire to end our apparently inappropriate friendship...

And some of them are even over 25. Perhaps time has simply not sharpened our barbs to deadly seriousness?

In my experience, males in the southeastern U.S. have raised friendly insults to an art-form (cue Jeff Foxworthy)

Interestingly enough, I'm from the north central US (South Dakota) which I suppose is not culturally all that different from the southeast. Jeff Foxworthy and his ilk certainly remain popular in the region.

Regardless, if you can't take it from me, take it from Henry. He makes a good point. Insults are a way to communicate for most men without seeming to act "like women." I shan't argue the total merit of the activity, but I think it's obvious that it's not *just* me and my buddies who act this way...

(on another note - Henry, perhaps *this* discussion should be split to a different thread, as it's at best tangentally related to the "girls in gaming" discussion?)

 

[Rel]

In my experience, males in the southeastern U.S. have raised friendly insults to an art-form (cue Jeff Foxworthy)

Leave it to you to say that, you crazy, old bastard!

 

[Aeson]

There are those amungst us in the south that do seem to show their friendship in a less than friendly manor. There is on the other hand a reason for the phrase Southern Hospitality. In my limited travel I have yet to find nicer people than in my home state of Georgia. Don't use Dragoncon as a reference for this. We have lots of Yankees come down for it.

 

[Quasqueton]

Regardless, if you can't take it from me, take it from Henry. He makes a good point. Insults are a way to communicate for most men without seeming to act "like women."

<points to self> Born, raised, live, and will die in the South.

You insinuated in your original post (in response to mine) and in further posts, that the insults and verbal assaults were common and constant. There's a vast difference between common and constant insults and the occassional playful poke. It's like the difference between having a friend kick you in the junk and a friend say, "I oughta kick you in the junk."

I just don't enjoy constantly and repeatedly swapping insults with friends. I just don't find it entertaining or endearing. I don't need it to communicate with my friends "without seeming to act like women". My manhood is in no way weakened or questioned with a, "Hey buddy, good to see you," rather than a, "You're stupid, we hate you, and you're stupid." <shrug> And in my experience, most men have outgrown that within a couple years of leaving college.

Quasqueton

 

[Darth K'Trava]

<points to self> Born, raised, live, and will die in the South.

Not born here but lived here most my life.

I just don't enjoy constantly and repeatedly swapping insults with friends. I just don't find it entertaining or endearing. I don't need it to communicate with my friends "without seeming to act like women". My manhood is in no way weakened or questioned with a, "Hey buddy, good to see you," rather than a, "You're stupid, we hate you, and you're stupid." <shrug> And in my experience, most men have outgrown that within a couple years of leaving college.

Quasqueton

I don't see the need to greet friends with insults.... what happened to being polite like Southerners are known to be? No wonder the "Southern Gentleman" is becoming extinct...

 

[LiKral]

I'm a female gamer (quite fanatical) and I've never had any problems in a game that I haven't seen happen to a guy along the years. I've never been treated badly or harrassed and I've played nine years in 4 different groups.
I've yet to meet a girl who only plays because of her boyfriend, though I've known at least two guys who only played because of their girlfriends.
I find geeks very accepting of other geeks in general, whatever the gender - as long as we can all talk about anime and sci-fi for hours, who cares?

 

[Quasqueton]

I don't see the need to greet friends with insults.... what happened to being polite like Southerners are known to be? No wonder the "Southern Gentleman" is becoming extinct...

Did you read what you quoted? What do you see as impolite or ungentlemanly in what I said?

Quasqueton

 

[Darth K'Trava]

Did you read what you quoted? What do you see as impolite or ungentlemanly in what I said?

Quasqueton

Not with you at all. Just those who think that people should greet others with insults.. But that wasn't aimed at you. Sorry.