Alignment and real world examples...

[DM_Matt]

I believe that Douglas McArthy deserves a label of LE. He utilized the nation's fear and ignorance to remove people of opposing beliefs by labeling those people as "Reds" and "Commies."

Lots of people make this mistake, but you just crossed Senator Joseph McCarthy and General Douglas MacArthur. Similar last name, same time period, both fought Communists. I won't get into politics so no history lessons on why Joe wasn't LE.

A really classicly LN institution, perhaps the most pure, 2e, LN institution, is the ACLU. They make a point of defending rather large numbers of evil people in addition to good ones to show their committment to the letter of the law.

 

[Mercule]

CG: Hippies

Without getting into my personal opinions...

I've always associated Hippies with Socialism, which I consider a _very_ Lawful ideology. Of course, many Hippies also claimed to be anarchs, which would be _very_ Chaotic. You can chalk up the conflict to the improbability of attributing game alignment to real-world groups.

Or, you could chalk it up to free use of pot, hash, and LSD. I'm in this camp, since I think it would be really difficult to have government control of the economy without any government.

 

[WayneLigon]

LG - Ideal priests/rabbis/whatever; ideal police; anyone who tries to maximize 'good' while still working within and promoting a tightly-structured set of social norms.
LN - Many people; those who perform or do not perform actions because of 'the rules' rather than actual morality. Facists. Rank and File Nazis. Followers/tools/puppets.
LE - Any policymaker at Phillip Morris; follows the letter of the law while still knowingly selling a destructive addictive substance that has knowingly been made more addictive in order to boost sales.

CG - Some activists, who try to maximize 'good' while disdaining or working against societal norms.
CN - Very small children. No sense of organization, no sense of morality.
CE - Child molesters. Disdain for both law and common morality.

NG - Most people; those who are good at heart or who follow a personal code of ethics and morality while disdaining some rules and laws, following others.
NE - Goerring, Himmler, Mengele, etc; the people under Hitler who used his power to further their own ends at the expense of others. 'Pure Evil'.
TN - I really can't think of anything human that falls into this catagory, save maybe for some sects of Buddism; I don't know much about Buddism, though, so that might not apply.

 

[DM_Matt]

Without getting into my personal opinions...

I've always associated Hippies with Socialism, which I consider a _very_ Lawful ideology. Of course, many Hippies also claimed to be anarchs, which would be _very_ Chaotic. You can chalk up the conflict to the improbability of attributing game alignment to real-world groups.

Or, you could chalk it up to free use of pot, hash, and LSD. I'm in this camp, since I think it would be really difficult to have government control of the economy without any government.

Well, the question here is how seriously did hippies even understand what Socialism entailed. In practice, yes, socialism can only exist as the product of government force. However, theoretical hippie socialism was about glorifying revolutionaries (very chaotic), seeking total equality of all sorts (chaotic, because a homogenized, classless society is vastly less structured than the ones that existed where hippies were/are), and getting away with lazing around on drugs instead of working. I also disagree that hippies are "Good." CN in my book. Hippies might have high ideals, but their ideology is hedonistic and in practice the revolutionaries they glorified were some pretty horrible violent people. For a hippie, chaos WAS more important than Good or Evil, and thus they should be CN.

 

[DragonOfIntellect]

Actually, I agree with 3Es point of view that most people, if you wanted to define them under an alignment system, would be Neutral. Most people do what they do based purely on personal reasons, and have no marked tendency to Good, Chaos, Law, or Evil.

 

[WayneLigon]

Hippies might have high ideals, but their ideology is hedonistic and in practice the revolutionaries they glorified were some pretty horrible violent people. For a hippie, chaos WAS more important than Good or Evil, and thus they should be CN.

Well, I can certainly think of worse things to advocate than having a good time. It really depends on your flavor of hippy. Are you talking about the 'all pigs must die' type revolutionary who saw a violent conflict with 'the Establishment' was just around the corner and were determined to come out on top? Are you talking about the political nihlists who just wanted to overthrow the state and let the pieces fall where they may? Are you talking about the 'peace and love' flower children who wanted everyone of every type and creed to get along? Are you talking about the psychedelics, who saw sensation (often augmented with drugs) as a gateway to understanding?

Most if not all would be classified as some kind of chaotic, with the more mainstream types tending to neutral. Wanting to change what they saw as a hopelessly corrupt and unresponsive government? Good.

 

[Qualir]

Lots of people make this mistake, but you just crossed Senator Joseph McCarthy and General Douglas MacArthur. Similar last name, same time period, both fought Communists. I won't get into politics so no history lessons on why Joe wasn't LE.

A really classicly LN institution, perhaps the most pure, 2e, LN institution, is the ACLU. They make a point of defending rather large numbers of evil people in addition to good ones to show their committment to the letter of the law.

I knew it sounded wrong, but it was the only name I could think of. Oh well, I should have just stuck with "that senator who put everyone on trial for being communist".

 

[Tonguez]

Without getting into my personal opinions...

I've always associated Hippies with Socialism, which I consider a _very_ Lawful ideology. Of course, many Hippies also claimed to be anarchs, which would be _very_ Chaotic.

Its because of Marx equating Socialism with Communism - True Communism is not the Socialist Communism as practiced in China and the former USSR.

True Communism is about communities controlling their own resources and affairs as equal participants - thats what Anarchism is about too (each persons right to associate as they choose)

Anarchic Communism thus becomes ideal Democracy - each individual has free choice to participate in the community they associate with as they choose for the good of the community...

 

[DM_Matt]

Its because of Marx equating Socialism with Communism - True Communism is not the Socialist Communism as practiced in China and the former USSR.

True Communism is about communities controlling their own resources and affairs as equal participants - thats what Anarchism is about too (each persons right to associate as they choose)

Anarchic Communism thus becomes ideal Democracy - each individual has free choice to participate in the community they associate with as they choose for the good of the community...

I'm talking aobut real communism...most people agree that theoretical communism is so far removed from human nature that its not actually possible on a scale much larger than small, voluntary communes.

 

[DM_Matt]

Well, I can certainly think of worse things to advocate than having a good time. It really depends on your flavor of hippy. Are you talking about the 'all pigs must die' type revolutionary who saw a violent conflict with 'the Establishment' was just around the corner and were determined to come out on top? Are you talking about the political nihlists who just wanted to overthrow the state and let the pieces fall where they may? Are you talking about the 'peace and love' flower children who wanted everyone of every type and creed to get along? Are you talking about the psychedelics, who saw sensation (often augmented with drugs) as a gateway to understanding?

Most if not all would be classified as some kind of chaotic, with the more mainstream types tending to neutral. Wanting to change what they saw as a hopelessly corrupt and unresponsive government? Good.

Ok, so you admit that virtualy all of those examples are CN. As far as the last, I don't think that anyone who fits the hippie classification actually were feet-on-the-ground reformers with reasonable ideas. There were all sorts of other people like that in the 60s, but at least by the definition of hippie I use those people don't qualify as hippies.