Alternative HP systems and other altered d20 mechanics

[Isawa Sideshow]

I have four pet hates with regards D&D mechanics:

1) Hit Points

Hit Points are certainly not perfect, personally I prefer the wound system from the original Star Wars RPG (not sure if they still use that).

For one, Hit Points don't really take into account the effect of injuries.

I've got an alternate VP/WP system posted in the House Rules forum. Uses fixed VP/WP that don't increase with level. Once you take WP damage, you become Fatigued, so your Str and Dex bonuses drop by one.

Beyond that level, though, I don't like degrading performance for the wounded. Once you get wounded, your capability to perform drops, which means you're more likely to get wounded, and your performance drops again, and so on and so forth. While it may be more realistic, it doesn't allow much room for near-death heroics.

Of course, I'm the one suggesting a highly-deadly damage system, so go figure.

2) Armour

Armour should reduce damage not increase the difficulty to hit.

Monte Cook already mentioned (during one of the recent chat nights) he wanted to do this. D20 Modern and others are going in that direction.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Modern armor - riot gear, kevlar, etc. - is made to absorb damage. Chainmail was made to absorb damage. Japanese armor, on the other hand, was made to deflect blows. When you're dealing with swords that can cut through multiple bodies in one swing, wicker and leather aren't going to absorb much. Your best bet is to deflect the blow so that it skips off your armor instead of cleaving through it.

Of course, then things get messy game-wise. Armor would have to have a deflection rating and an absorption rating, and that's just an extra bit of un-needed complexity.

3) Strength

Strength is idiotic in D&D - specifically the relationship between damage and lifting capacity. Something that could effectively lift planet Earth only has 412 strength - dealing +206 damage.

Ignoring the fact that d20 doesn't scale well to DCs beyond 50 anyway , no one is likely to ever see a character with a 412 strength or a +206 bonus. That's just plain silly. However, strength aiding damage is a simple abstraction. It's easy to understand - stronger people hit harder. Is it necessarily realistic? Not always - again, Japanese swordplay mainly uses the wrists to generate power, not massive upper body strength. However, there's no "Wrist Strength" stat, so Strength does nicely.

4) Skill

The worst feature of D&D is whereby Hit Dice equals Skill (as in Basic Attack Bonus). Larger more powerful creatures have slower reflexes.

If anything Skill/BAB should parallel Dexterity; and as you increase Strength you should reduce Dexterity.

Take the Lord of the Rings movie. Remember the fight with the Giant Troll. The beast was clumsy but could soak up tremendous amounts of damage. Any humanoid hit by its attacks was pretty much guaranteed to die. The Hill Giant in the MM is probably the best parallel.

Anyone fighting a Hill Giant should rarely get hit (Its attacks are clumsy and slow); but when they do it should be pretty much game over! [/B]

Again, I have to disagree. A few things wrong with your theory:

1) While Hit Dice may mean increased hitting ability, it does not necessarily mean increased size. Anything that advances by class levels gains more HD, but the vast majority don't get bigger as they advance.
2) Size and reflexes are not necessarily inversely relational. Large predators, such as some of the big cats or ocean-going carnivores, are larger (and in most cases, stronger) than humans but still have very fast reflexes.
3) Lumbering creatures don't need precision to hurt you. If a Hill Giant is meant to be clumsy, it should have a low Dexterity. That doesn't mean it can't hit you, though. It's not going to be using precision strikes; it's going to be swinging a club in large arcs with a high velocity. That club is moving fast, covering a large area, and is going to hurt badly if you're in its path. At that point, it's your Dexterity, not the giant's, that's going to determine if you get hit or not.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Isawa!

I just had a 45 minute response eaten when my connection sprouted an error.

I'll get back to you a little later.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again - I hope this one doesn't get eaten!

I've got an alternate VP/WP system posted in the House Rules forum. Uses fixed VP/WP that don't increase with level. Once you take WP damage, you become Fatigued, so your Str and Dex bonuses drop by one.

I had a look but haven't studied it in depth - if I have any specific questions I'll respond in that thread.

Beyond that level, though, I don't like degrading performance for the wounded. Once you get wounded, your capability to perform drops, which means you're more likely to get wounded, and your performance drops again, and so on and so forth. While it may be more realistic, it doesn't allow much room for near-death heroics.

I remember the Wound System in the original Star Wars RPG (not sure if d20 Star Wars uses the same method?) - it was pretty heroic.

Of course, I'm the one suggesting a highly-deadly damage system, so go figure.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Modern armor - riot gear, kevlar, etc. - is made to absorb damage. Chainmail was made to absorb damage.

Exactly, so you agree it should absorb damage in most cases.

Japanese armor, on the other hand, was made to deflect blows.

As are shields.

When you're dealing with swords that can cut through multiple bodies in one swing, wicker and leather aren't going to absorb much.

True, but they are much lighter than, say Platemail or Chainmail. As such they encumber less. So you are trading speed for protection.

Your best bet is to deflect the blow so that it skips off your armor instead of cleaving through it.

Your best bet is not to get into the fight in the first place.

Of course, then things get messy game-wise. Armor would have to have a deflection rating and an absorption rating, and that's just an extra bit of un-needed complexity.

I don't agree. We used armour as damage reduction for years in our 2nd Ed. game and it worked easily enough.

Ignoring the fact that d20 doesn't scale well to DCs beyond 50 anyway ,

On that point we are in total agreement. However, theres no reason why it shouldn't scale infinitely if they had got the basics right from the beginning.

no one is likely to ever see a character with a 412 strength or a +206 bonus.

The Sphinx in Dragon #297 has STR 280.

A Storm Giant should deliver 64 times more damage than a normal human.

That's just plain silly.

Actually its just plain physics.

However, strength aiding damage is a simple abstraction.

I agree its arbitrary, but once you know how much damage a man swinging a baseball bat (club) should deal the rest must surely be extrapolated from that; based on some sort of logic!?

It's easy to understand - stronger people hit harder.

E=mc2

Is it necessarily realistic? Not always - again, Japanese swordplay mainly uses the wrists to generate power, not massive upper body strength. However, there's no "Wrist Strength" stat, so Strength does nicely.

But thats added damage from weapon specialisation - not strength.

Though theoretically it could be incorporated as a damage multiplier rather than a bonus.

Again, I have to disagree. A few things wrong with your theory:

Unlikely.

1) While Hit Dice may mean increased hitting ability, it does not necessarily mean increased size.

My argument is that Hit Dice should be divorced from BAB/Weapon Skill.

Anything that advances by class levels gains more HD,

Yes, but why should it - other than as an arbitrary marker of an already incongruous system.

Hit Dice for monsters should represent mass not skill.

Class Levels should represent skill not mass.

but the vast majority don't get bigger as they advance.

Yet every creature that does advance in Hit Dice does get bigger!

2) Size and reflexes are not necessarily inversely relational.

Yes they are...

Large predators, such as some of the big cats or ocean-going carnivores, are larger (and in most cases, stronger) than humans but still have very fast reflexes.

...they are built differently though. Theres no point comparing a Tiger to a Human. Try comparing a Tiger to a wild Cat. Or a Shark to other Fish. Or a Hill Giant to a Human.

I would seriously doubt that Tigers have faster reflexes than humans anyway!

3) Lumbering creatures don't need precision to hurt you.

But they do need precision to hit you.

Refer again to the Lord of the Rings battle with the Cave Troll.

If a Hill Giant is meant to be clumsy, it should have a low Dexterity.

Not overtly clumsy, but certainly less dextrous than the average human.

That doesn't mean it can't hit you, though.

Obviously it can hit targets however, just because it has a lot of Hit Dice doesn't mean it should have a high BAB.

If anything; it is as skilled as a 1st-level commoner (modified by the Cave Troll/Hill Giants Experience) and if you take account of lower dexterity and size penalties (which also probably need modification) then it should actually hit you less often than a 1st-level commoner with a baseball bat.

It's not going to be using precision strikes; it's going to be swinging a club in large arcs with a high velocity. That club is moving fast, covering a large area, and is going to hurt badly if you're in its path. At that point, it's your Dexterity, not the giant's, that's going to determine if you get hit or not.

Being able to simply swing a club does not make you a skilled combatant though.

Also its unlikely the velocity of the club would be greater than one swung by a human - however the mass of the club (x8) is proportional to the kinetic energy/damage.

 

[Isawa Sideshow]

Upper_Krust:

The five-level wound system in SWd6 wasn't bad. Not one of my favorites, but not bad. SWd20, on the other hand, uses two tiers of hit points - Wound Points equal to your constitution, and Vitality Points based on class and level. WP stay constant, VP are exactly the same as HP, except that VP "damage" doesn't represent actual injury in most cases. It's luck, stamina, and script immunity that allows for heroic maneuvers. WP damage, on the other hand, is actual bodily harm. NPC classes don't have VP - they're mooks (to borrow a Feng Shui term) that are supposed to drop easily.

One change that was made in Revised SWd20 is that all armor offers DR, not a Defense bonus. However, that DR only applies to WP damage, not VP damage. All the armor in the world won't make you any more or less lucky. So you'd probably prefer that system. I think it's a good system myself, but I also like D&D3e's system as well.

As far as bringing actual physics into the game - Strength being proportional to the cube of the size, Bullets having so many joules of kinetic energy to punch through so many inches of armor, etc - well, things start breaking down when you get into fantasy or sci-fi settings.

Giants, for example, aren't physically possible; their frame could not support their massive body. They wouldn't live very long.

How many calories of heat are in a fireball? Is it hot enough to flash-fry someone, or does it just singe them? How many joules of concussive force are created by the explosion? How is all this fire and force damage absorbed by metal armor? Wouldn't the characters take more damage from their armor as it was heated?

Do lightsabers ignore damage resistance? How many inches of armor can a lightsaber cut through in one second?

Does leather armor absorb laser damage, or is it not reflective enough? Wouldn't the laser cut right through the armor and the tender flesh underneath?

Eventually, you have to draw a line between realism and abstraction. I tend to find myself erring on the abstraction side, rather that adding too much extra complexity to the game. While a little bit of realism is nice, there's only so much you can do before you're spending more time trying to make rules that accurately model the world than you are playing the game.

And as for hit dice and BAB, well, I honestly do prefer skill-based combat, but until someone offers a skill-based attack bonus system that's balanced for all classes, is easy to apply to existing characters/creatures, is easy for new players to pick up, and maintains the proficiencies set forth in the PHB, I'm fine with BAB. It's another abstraction, and I'm totally fine with that.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Isawa mate!

Upper_Krust:

The five-level wound system in SWd6 wasn't bad.

Not one of my favorites, but not bad.

Certainly a lot better than hit points - thats for sure.

SWd20, on the other hand, uses two tiers of hit points - Wound Points equal to your constitution, and Vitality Points based on class and level. WP stay constant, VP are exactly the same as HP, except that VP "damage" doesn't represent actual injury in most cases. It's luck, stamina, and script immunity that allows for heroic maneuvers. WP damage, on the other hand, is actual bodily harm. NPC classes don't have VP - they're mooks (to borrow a Feng Shui term) that are supposed to drop easily.

I don't see the above as a notable improvement.

One change that was made in Revised SWd20 is that all armor offers DR, not a Defense bonus.

As it should.

However, that DR only applies to WP damage, not VP damage.

Okay.

All the armor in the world won't make you any more or less lucky.

Luck is handled by the dice though. Armour will reduce the probability of injury, giving luck less room to maneouver!

So you'd probably prefer that system. I think it's a good system myself, but I also like D&D3e's system as well.

Unfortunately it still retains hit points. So it doesn't solve any problems as far as I can see.

As far as bringing actual physics into the game - Strength being proportional to the cube of the size,

Base strength certainly.

Bullets having so many joules of kinetic energy to punch through so many inches of armor, etc -

Exactly. But you don't have to tell roleplayers that. Its enough that the game designer knows the principles.

well, things start breaking down when you get into fantasy or sci-fi settings.

Only when they don't know what they're doing.

Giants, for example, aren't physically possible; their frame could not support their massive body. They wouldn't live very long.

Hill Giants are probably just about feasible; Ogres certainly.

Dragons are possible (see dinosaurs).

Purple Worms are possible.

Marine life of pretty much any size is possible.

Virtually any size Plant is possible.

Other races of huge or greater size probably need magical explanation. Any kind of elemental; outsider; ooze etc. is therefore possible.

How many calories of heat are in a fireball?

Well, a fireball mimicking 125g of explosives (a grenade) would deal about 525 kilojoules (off the top of my head).

An M16 5.56mm round deals 27 Kj.

So depending on where you set the initial abstraction of damage you can easily determine damage.

Is it hot enough to flash-fry someone, or does it just singe them?

As per a grenade in this case.

How many joules of concussive force are created by the explosion?

See above.

How is all this fire and force damage absorbed by metal armor?

As before - once you set an abstract figure for damage based on kinetic energy, you set a similar factor for armour.

We know a bullet proof vest would stop a 5.56mm round so it must reduce damage by more than that rounds maximum damage!

Wouldn't the characters take more damage from their armor as it was heated?

Armour won't be (notably) heated by an explosion, only prolonged heat.

Do lightsabers ignore damage resistance?

I would say yes (as with Brilliant Energy Weapons - though affecting everything) - although they could be blocked by magical/force field barriers.

How many inches of armor can a lightsaber cut through in one second?

Depends on the type of material. Star Wars materials are far in advance of current real world or medieval materials.

Does leather armor absorb laser damage, or is it not reflective enough?

It would absorb a small proportion of the damage (or delay the laser for a fraction of a second in the event of a continuous beam). The two factors are the thickness of the leather and the power of the laser.

Wouldn't the laser cut right through the armor and the tender flesh underneath?

Depends on the power of the laser.

eg. A laser sight doesn't penetrate leather.

Eventually, you have to draw a line between realism and abstraction.

Only with unrealistic elements.

I tend to find myself erring on the abstraction side, rather that adding too much extra complexity to the game.

As long as the science is hidden behind the game mechanics I don't see a problem.

While a little bit of realism is nice, there's only so much you can do before you're spending more time trying to make rules that accurately model the world than you are playing the game.

But thats the designers responsibility - not the players.

And as for hit dice and BAB, well, I honestly do prefer skill-based combat, but until someone offers a skill-based attack bonus system that's balanced for all classes, is easy to apply to existing characters/creatures, is easy for new players to pick up, and maintains the proficiencies set forth in the PHB, I'm fine with BAB. It's another abstraction, and I'm totally fine with that.

I don't think there will be a quick remedy to D&D Hit Dice/BAB/Skill.

Primarily because it has far wider implications and impacts many other key fundamentals.

However, its something they could think about for 4th Edition.

 

[Isawa Sideshow]

Trimmed a bit because, well... your method of quoting responses makes quoting back quite annoying! Nothing personal.

Originally posted by Upper_Krust
Well, a fireball mimicking 125g of explosives (a grenade) would deal about 525 kilojoules (off the top of my head).

...

As per a grenade in this case.

...

See above.

...

Armour won't be (notably) heated by an explosion, only prolonged heat.

Ah, but there's a problem. Unless we're talking about an incindiary grenade, which is meant to start a prolonged fire, comparing a fireball to a grenade doesn't work. Fireballs deal fire damage, indicating that they're massive balls of, well, fire... fire that's hot enough to burn people to death in a couple of seconds. To flash-burn someone to death, you've got to be talking fires in the thousands of degrees.

A grenade, on the other hand, does its damage with concussive force and shrapnel, so it's completely different. A creature that's immune to fire wouldn't be hurt by a fireball, but could still be injured by a grenade.

It would absorb a small proportion of the damage (or delay the laser for a fraction of a second in the event of a continuous beam). The two factors are the thickness of the leather and the power of the laser.

...

Depends on the power of the laser.

eg. A laser sight doesn't penetrate leather.

Right, but a laser sight isn't meant to put a hole in anyone... it just aids you in making a hole in them with something else.

The problem remains, though. Do you treat leather armor as having a different DR against lasers than it does against punches? What about kevlar? How would it handle against a laser? Or really well-polished plate mail? Would the laser reflect off of it (raising its DR significantly) or would it punch right through?

See, that's what I'm talking about. There's so much extra complexity in how you're handling different kinds of damage/armor interatctions that trying to be realistic is an excercise in futility, or at least one in frustration. I certainly wouldn't have fun trying to juggle all of that either as a player or a GM. I know your argument is that the game designers should do all the work, but the people playing have to actually use the resulting system. If the results are another set of abstracts (which seems to be what you're suggesting), then you're just trading one abstract for another. In that case, it's not a flaw in the system, it's just personal preference for a different set of abstracts.

Only with unrealistic elements.

Which sci-fi and fantasy are filled to the brim with. Trying to fill in the physics for all of them is a job I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again Isawa mate!

Trimmed a bit because, well... your method of quoting responses makes quoting back quite annoying! Nothing personal.

Force of habit I'm afraid!

I like to be thorough.

Ah, but there's a problem. Unless we're talking about an incendiary grenade, which is meant to start a prolonged fire, comparing a fireball to a grenade doesn't work. Fireballs deal fire damage, indicating that they're massive balls of, well, fire... fire that's hot enough to burn people to death in a couple of seconds. To flash-burn someone to death, you've got to be talking fires in the thousands of degrees.

I was just using the grenade as an example.

If we were to retain the Vancian Magic System of D&D then damage is more important than actual energy. Since we know that fire can vary in temperature.

So you would actually be better setting the damage; then determining effects. Rather than vice-versa (as with realistic effects).

A grenade, on the other hand, does its damage with concussive force and shrapnel, so it's completely different. A creature that's immune to fire wouldn't be hurt by a fireball, but could still be injured by a grenade.

I agree.

Right, but a laser sight isn't meant to put a hole in anyone... it just aids you in making a hole in them with something else.

Exactly but I was using the example to highlight that to determine the damage a laser inflicts we need power output.

The problem remains, though. Do you treat leather armor as having a different DR against lasers than it does against punches? What about kevlar? How would it handle against a laser? Or really well-polished plate mail? Would the laser reflect off of it (raising its DR significantly) or would it punch right through?

This is pretty simple. I'll use examples.

Lets say Leather Armour reduces damage by 4. (double current AC improvement)

Certain weapons penetrate armour better than others. Piercing weapons penetrate better than Slashing weapons; which in turn penetrate better than Crushing weapons.

Lets say Slashing weapons halve armour value and piercing weapons quarter it.

Leather Armour vs a Mace would reduce damage by 4.
Leather Armour vs a Longsword would reduce damage by 2.
Leather Armour vs a Spear would reduce damage by 1.

Obviously various types of armours or materials give different results. But so do the current armour rules.

See, that's what I'm talking about. There's so much extra complexity in how you're handling different kinds of damage/armor interatctions that trying to be realistic is an excercise in futility, or at least one in frustration.

No. If you apply basic principles and common sense its actually more simple.

I certainly wouldn't have fun trying to juggle all of that either as a player or a GM. I know your argument is that the game designers should do all the work, but the people playing have to actually use the resulting system.

How is the player or DM having to juggle anything!? I told you that all physics would be handled behind the scenes!

Players won't have to know how many Kilojoules of energy a baseball bat will deliver. All they need to know is it deals 1d6 damage. How is that different from the current system!?

The change is that the designers know their system can scale realistically. So a Hill Giants 'baseball bat' delivers 8d6 damage.

If the results are another set of abstracts (which seems to be what you're suggesting), then you're just trading one abstract for another. In that case, it's not a flaw in the system, it's just personal preference for a different set of abstracts.

The difference is that our figures will make sense.

The problem with D&D is that they don't make sense!

Which sci-fi and fantasy are filled to the brim with. Trying to fill in the physics for all of them is a job I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies.

But you don't need to. Once you have determined the damage a baseball bat delivers every single element of damage falls into place. Imaginative/Magical injuries are determined through game balance.

Detailing Physics - determine effect THEN the mechanic.
Detailing Magic - determine the mechanic THEN the effect.

 

[LostSoul]

The five-level wound system in SWd6 wasn't bad. Not one of my favorites, but not bad.

SWd6 Hit Points:

Hit Points = 6xSTR.
Damage = Damage Roll - STR roll. Difference = hit point damage.
Stunned on any hit.
Wounded at max Hit Points - 6.
Incapacitated at 0.
Mortally wounded at -6.
Killed at -12.

 

[Isawa Sideshow]

Originally posted by LostSoul
SWd6 Hit Points:

Hit Points = 6xSTR.
Damage = Damage Roll - STR roll. Difference = hit point damage.
Stunned on any hit.
Wounded at max Hit Points - 6.
Incapacitated at 0.
Mortally wounded at -6.
Killed at -12.

Hrm. That's different than I remember. My SWd6 book has a chart that compared the damage roll and STR roll, and assigned you a number of wounds based on that. Was that a 1e SWd6 thing, or was it in 2e Revised SWd6? If so, that would explain why it wasn't in my 2e SWd6 book.

Of course, they also used that system, or something very much like it, in the generic d6 System book they produced as an alternative to the 5-wound system.

 

[LostSoul]

That's just a house rule I came up with when I realized I liked playing with hit points.