jdavis
First Post
Oh Lucas is responsible for a world of bad out there: http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0000184/Mark said:Only two...?
Are you glad the Star Wars prequels were even made?
- Thread starter Kai Lord
- Start date
BrooklynKnight
First Post
As big and comrehensive starwars fan I am, I feel i should say something....but most of it has already been said bu John and Darrin...
The movies are not what they could have been. The FX was better. Personally i would have perefered models to retain the mechanical artifical feel of the ships but thats ok.
The thing that disturbs me most about the movies is the ignoration of continutity.
(Tangent, On the starwars site continuity and cannon have been seperated. The books are Continuity, officially. The movies are cannon, officially.)
The movies "break" continutty that was established in books. Bevil Lemensk (i spell his name wrong) designed the deathstar. Boba Fett was a swoop pilot security guard turned bounty hunter, not a clone. It was rumored (i forget which book) that Owen Lars was Obiwans Brother.
Thats what annoys me most about the movies. Lucas decided to screw the 15 some years of novelizations that helped a rich universe grow and prosper to change things around.
The Outbound Flight Project and Jorrus Cboath hasnt even been mentioned though this is exactly the time period when it launches.
None of this is important really. The movies were "OK". Lucas is making them fit "his" vision and thats fine.
I'm glad they were made though I wish they would have been made better. I do hope to god he lets someone else direct 7-9 and that they get done at all.
The movies are not what they could have been. The FX was better. Personally i would have perefered models to retain the mechanical artifical feel of the ships but thats ok.
The thing that disturbs me most about the movies is the ignoration of continutity.
(Tangent, On the starwars site continuity and cannon have been seperated. The books are Continuity, officially. The movies are cannon, officially.)
The movies "break" continutty that was established in books. Bevil Lemensk (i spell his name wrong) designed the deathstar. Boba Fett was a swoop pilot security guard turned bounty hunter, not a clone. It was rumored (i forget which book) that Owen Lars was Obiwans Brother.
Thats what annoys me most about the movies. Lucas decided to screw the 15 some years of novelizations that helped a rich universe grow and prosper to change things around.
The Outbound Flight Project and Jorrus Cboath hasnt even been mentioned though this is exactly the time period when it launches.
None of this is important really. The movies were "OK". Lucas is making them fit "his" vision and thats fine.
I'm glad they were made though I wish they would have been made better. I do hope to god he lets someone else direct 7-9 and that they get done at all.
BrooklynKnight
First Post
jdavis said:
heh, they missed his appearance on an mtv show last year or something.imbd said:
dpdx
Explorer
I voted Yes, but... something. Really, I'm hoping for the remake of 1 through 3, when Spielberg gets to make it right.
Episode 1 is an afterschool special, as far as I'm concerned.
Episode 2 was better, but still not great. The sad thing is, better writing and a longer plotline would have saved it. Based on Ep. 1, Episode 2 could have been as long as The Killing Fields and still not done everything it needed to do to set up Episode 3.
Lucas needs to stuff that monstrous ego in an escape pod, and let someone else write, direct, produce, and executive produce Ep. 3.
Episode 1 is an afterschool special, as far as I'm concerned.
Episode 2 was better, but still not great. The sad thing is, better writing and a longer plotline would have saved it. Based on Ep. 1, Episode 2 could have been as long as The Killing Fields and still not done everything it needed to do to set up Episode 3.
Lucas needs to stuff that monstrous ego in an escape pod, and let someone else write, direct, produce, and executive produce Ep. 3.
Before I start again, I don't have any emotional attachement to these movies, but I do find it an interesting exercise to see if they make sense. So, no hard feelings on my side, even if I may seem to be hammering at the EpI and EpII defenders. Smiley face of conciliation ->
OK, then on the scale of power in the universe this Clone Army is equivalent to Palpatines personal guard? So, if you look at the final battle, then the Jedi, the Clones and Dooku's forces are all meant to be roughly equal in combat power? It's going to be a funny name for the war, calling it the "Clone Wars", when really its a skirmish between a handful of small private armies. If you follow this theory too far, you'd expect the army of the Republic to have billions of soldiers and thus be make control of the Clone Army insignificant.
So Palpatine delagates one of his Dark Jedi minions to go to Kamino and order a very small army cloned up for him. But his instructions to the Kaminians are to give this army "to any Jedi", knowing full well that the good Jedi will discover this and take the army for themselves?? That seems like a stretch!
And, where do the Clones fit in if theres a giant Army of the Republic? Palpatine could just give Yoda (or preferably someone lame, like Jar-Jar!) command of a few battle groups and send him off to fight ineffectively againt Dooku for a couple years. The secret Clone Army seems like a pointless complication (but an opportunity for some cool CG.)
I think GL just needed to move the plot along; he didn't worry about the logic of his characters.
That's my point about the economics. If we assume the army is big, there's only about twenty people in the Republic who can make this happen. If we assume the Clone Army is small, the economics work but the logic doesn't - the Clones are too unimportant to be the pivot on which the galactic war rests.
I think that Brin's explanation makes as much sense as GLs original plot. And it's funnier. ;-)
Like I said, I don't think GL thought deeply about the continuity at all. He had some ideas of cool scenes and he need to get certain plot points to happen. As DMs I think we've all been in this boat. You wave your hands, have the Kaminians present the clue - "Look, the Clone Army" - and hope your players don't think hard about how it all fits together. But in this case I think I can see the stitches holding EpI and EpII together, and I am disappointed.
edit: oops, quotes got messed up.
OK, then on the scale of power in the universe this Clone Army is equivalent to Palpatines personal guard? So, if you look at the final battle, then the Jedi, the Clones and Dooku's forces are all meant to be roughly equal in combat power? It's going to be a funny name for the war, calling it the "Clone Wars", when really its a skirmish between a handful of small private armies. If you follow this theory too far, you'd expect the army of the Republic to have billions of soldiers and thus be make control of the Clone Army insignificant.
So Palpatine delagates one of his Dark Jedi minions to go to Kamino and order a very small army cloned up for him. But his instructions to the Kaminians are to give this army "to any Jedi", knowing full well that the good Jedi will discover this and take the army for themselves?? That seems like a stretch!
And, where do the Clones fit in if theres a giant Army of the Republic? Palpatine could just give Yoda (or preferably someone lame, like Jar-Jar!) command of a few battle groups and send him off to fight ineffectively againt Dooku for a couple years. The secret Clone Army seems like a pointless complication (but an opportunity for some cool CG.)
I think GL just needed to move the plot along; he didn't worry about the logic of his characters.
That's my point about the economics. If we assume the army is big, there's only about twenty people in the Republic who can make this happen. If we assume the Clone Army is small, the economics work but the logic doesn't - the Clones are too unimportant to be the pivot on which the galactic war rests.
I think that Brin's explanation makes as much sense as GLs original plot. And it's funnier. ;-)
Like I said, I don't think GL thought deeply about the continuity at all. He had some ideas of cool scenes and he need to get certain plot points to happen. As DMs I think we've all been in this boat. You wave your hands, have the Kaminians present the clue - "Look, the Clone Army" - and hope your players don't think hard about how it all fits together. But in this case I think I can see the stitches holding EpI and EpII together, and I am disappointed.
edit: oops, quotes got messed up.
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EricNoah
Adventurer
I'm certainly glad the prequels were and are being made. However, I don't necessarily have a great attachment to them the way I do to the others, and I don't care what anyone says -- the acting in eps 1-3 was a good notch better than the acting in the prequels. I would much rather see Mark Hamill over-acting a smidge but getting his fear and despair out there in the core of Cloud City than watch Lucas not even try to get emotions out of his actors in the big scenes where it really counts in the prequels. The scene where Anakin's mother dies and he goes off on the Tuskens had the potential to be chilling; his confession to Padme equally so; and their love should have come off as forbidden fruit. I didn't even come close to feeling it.
And so of course I'm worried that in the final film of the prequel trilogy Lucas won't nail it when it counts, the biggest emotional climax potentially of the entire series. I don't care about plot holes and so forth, I am very forgiving of that, but Peter Jackson has shown me that I can have my eye candy AND a little bit of acting on the same screen. Maybe it's too much to ask for.
And so of course I'm worried that in the final film of the prequel trilogy Lucas won't nail it when it counts, the biggest emotional climax potentially of the entire series. I don't care about plot holes and so forth, I am very forgiving of that, but Peter Jackson has shown me that I can have my eye candy AND a little bit of acting on the same screen. Maybe it's too much to ask for.
jdavis said:
First of all, Lucas' success in other films has been as a producer, first and foremost, not a writer or a director. And second, I haven't missed anything about the plot. You are missing my point. Lucas' execution sucks. The plot is muddled. I know what is going to happen. I know that the clones are the stormtroopers of tomorrow. I know that Palpatine is actually Darth Sideous. I know that this is all a setup to eliminate the Jedi. The point is, without the original movies, this plot would NOT be obvious. It would not be engrossing in any way, shape or form. It wouldn't be some big conspiracy/mystery. It just wouldn't make sense. Without the prior knowledge of what is going to happen with Vader, Palpatine, and the destruction of the Jedi, this would be a big confusing mess. That is my criticism. The story only works because we know what happens in Star Wars, Empire, and Return of the Jedi. These movies don't stand on their own. They are crapola.
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Kai Lord
Hero
No, it really isn't too much to ask for. I think part of it is a lack of faith by the actors in the quality of writing and the story and the other part of it has to do with the actors being asked to emote largely on all green sets in front of blank green walls. Much harder to get the epic scope of the story when you're constantly reacting to nothing.EricNoah said:I don't care about plot holes and so forth, I am very forgiving of that, but Peter Jackson has shown me that I can have my eye candy AND a little bit of acting on the same screen. Maybe it's too much to ask for.
Another reason the acting is so "off" in places is revealed on the AOTC DVD. If Lucas thought in some scenes Hayden Christiansen delivered a line better than Portman, and vice versa, he would later digitally splice what he considered the best two line deliveries into one scene to create a "super take" of the scene as he coined it. The problem is you get a totally off-kilter chemistry because the actors aren't even reacting to what the other person is doing or saying, we're seeing them reacting to what the other actor did three takes ago so even the one on one human interactions have an extra level of phoniness to them in a way that's completely unnecessary.
Its taking the gimmick of Forrest Gump's Tom Hanks/JFK splicing way too far and in scenes that are supposed to be intimate and emotional. Just bad directing.
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jdavis
First Post
'Eh it's just making my day off go by quicker. Trust me I don't take anything person around here, that's just not a good idea.Gizzard said:Before I start again, I don't have any emotional attachement to these movies, but I do find it an interesting exercise to see if they make sense. So, no hard feelings on my side, even if I may seem to be hammering at the EpI and EpII defenders. Smiley face of conciliation ->
I don't consider myself a episode 1 or episode 2 defender, heck I think they were piss poor myself, I just arguing the plotline.There isn't a Army of the Republic, that's a super huge giant point of contention for the whole darn thing, Amadala is fighting in the senate to stop the creation of a Army of the Republic. It's was spelled out within 10 minutes of the movie stating that there is no army of the Republic, they relied completly on the Jedi. As far as that not being a lot of clones, it was the first batch of them, now that they are in a war they will have to continue to order more of them. This wasn't just a skirmish, it was the first battle in a war that last several years (Did you not hear Yoda at the end saying that the Clone Wars have just begun.... Heck they even made a cartoon about it). It also forces the issue from a diplomatic negociation (which is what Amadala was wanting) to a actual declared war. Palpatine was given emergency power to create a army of the Republic (which will undoubtably be more than just clones, just as the Imperial army in Star Wars was more than just Stormtroopers). This move was to allow him to create a army, those clones weren't the army they were the start of the army, Palpatine makes the decisions where troops come from, it's pretty easy for him to say, well the clones worked good lets keep them comming and nobody is the wiser. If there was a army of the Republic to start with then the whole movie doesn't make sense, why would Amadala be leading a faction of senators who are trying to stop the creation of a Army of the Republic if one already existed? Why would the sepratist think they could pull away by using their military might? And why would Palpatine need the clones?
Palpatine only had one dark Jedi minion (there is always only two sith lords) and it was Dooku. By reading what you wrote here I see that you have in fact completly missed the entire plot of the movie. The Kaminoans were instructed to make the army for the Jedi council, why because the Jedi work for the Chancellor, Yes yes yes the army was intended for the Jedi to have. That's the whole point here it was a set up, Palpatine put the Jedi in a position on Geonosis where they were forced to take this army of clones and go to war, there wasn't any other army available because there was no army of the Republic to do this. The Jedi didn't take the army for themselves they took them for the Republic, which Palpatine just managed to gain complete control over. The Jedi are not a independant organization, they are a subservient group to the Senate (controlled by Palpatine). If Palpatine was the President then Yoda would be nothing more than a high ranking General or maybe a minor staff member. This is a secret plot, Palpatine can't reveal himself as a Dark Lord of the Sith, the Jedi would destroy him, but he can manipulate himself to the top where he can secretly send them out to be killed in a bloody war. He tricked the Trade Federation into starting a separitist movement and starting a big crisis, he tricked the Senate to give him absolute power (funny that he had sent Amadala home and into hiding right before this vote came up, she was it's biggest opponent), he tricked the Jedi into going to Geonosis (and being slaughtered) and tricked Yoda into attacking Geonosis with the clones to rescue them thus starting the clone wars. There was no other army of the Republic, there were not enough Jedi to fight a war, heck until Yoda attacked Geonosis to rescue the Jedi, there was no war. He did all this while managing to look like he was actually against the war or the creation of a army himself. Did you not understand that he controlled the Republic the Jedi worked for? Heck he's the person who told the Jedi to let Obi Wan track down the assassin which lead them to Kamino, he knew Obi Wan would go there, he planned it, he knew Obi Wan would then go to Geonosis, he planned it. Did you not see all those scenes where he was telling the Jedi what to do in his chambers? He was leading them around by the nose.
Maybe you fell asleep and missed some of the story or something ( I doze off during the Pod race in Phantom Menace every time myself). You have completly missed what was going on here. Palpatine manuvered the Jedi into a position where they would need a army, one he had prepared 10 years earlier to be waiting for them at this time. Why so they would start a war with the separitist movement he also created 10 years ago. How can he do this, well he can see the future so that really helps, it also helps the Republic was in decline to start with. WHy does he do this? This war allows him to kill off Jedi without being discovered (people die in a war a good portion of the Jedi were killed off on Geonosis right off the bat), consolodate his power over the Repbulic, he will be a war hero when they win, (the Senate was a beurocratic mess, but he saved the Republic) and gain the army he will need to rule once the Jedi are gone. Then when he is ready he pulls the old Julius Ceaser and declares himself Emperor and disbands the Senate. This isn't speculation here it's how Star Wars episode 4 A New Hope started out in 1977.
He put so much time into the logic of the story he forgot to make the characters believable, but rest assured I'm not pulling your leg here, I am not making stuff up this is the plot of the movie, some of it is me making a logic stretch (not a very big one) but most of it was pretty much spelled out in black and white. The Jedi didn't steal his clone army.......The Jedi were manipulated into using the clone army to start a war. There was no other army for them to use when they needed one. This is the plot of the movie. There was no other way to defend the Republic and once they found out the separatist were creating a huge Droid army they had to act. It was shown the Jedi couldn't beat the Droid army (they lost in the Arena and had to be rescued), they needed their own army, wasn't it convienent that one just happened to be supplied for them when they needed it the most? Darth Sidious created a army of clones and had them hand delivered by the Jedi to Chancellor Palpatine.
If we assume the clone army was big then there were millions of people or corperations or planetary governments who could of had it created, the Trade Federation had their own army, heck Naboo had it's own army (as pathetic as that was). Everybody but the Republic had a army, they relied on the Jedi (and more importantly the Jedi's reputation) to maintain order. If you look at it as the army was small, well then it was still big enough to start a war and you don't need as clones as they fight better than droids do, not to mention they would be lead by the Jedi and they would also be a good core for creating a army of the republic around. Either way the economics work out because you are on a galactic scale, where did he get the money? well from any of a thousand sources on a million planets, and the pivital role of the clone army works because before them there is no army of the Republic, after them there was one.
Eh you have missed some big glaring plot points of the movie here, like the fact that Amadala started the whole movie on her way to Corescant to vote on the big issue of wether there should be a Army of the Republic created, there wasn't one beforehand, or the fact that the clone army was obviously meant for the Jedi to use and that they delivered it to Palpatine. Heck you seem to have missed the point that the Jedi work for the Senate (lead by Palpatine). Or that Dooku wasn't actually part of the Sepratist movement, he was manipulating them for Palpatine. These are real fundamental underlying points to what's going on, they are not things I am coming up with to explain things they are the facts of the movie. I'm not arguing whether it was a good movie or not (it really wasn't all that) I'm just pointing out the plot details.
jdavis
First Post
Well except for this little film he directed called Star Wars and this film he did called American Graffiti (which many to consider a real classic) Of course he has only directed 6 films and one of them isn't due out for another year. Lets not mention that the movies he has Produced were some of the best movies ever or that he is credited with the story for most of them. Yes he did a crappy job with the last two and yes he will probably do a crappy job witht he next one, but maybe we shouldn't crucify him for a movie that isn't even finished yet.TiQuinn said:
As far as the rest without the first movies the plot twist to the third one would of been a big "I am your Father" type of suprise when Palpatine was revealed to be Sidious. I do have to disagree with you on his plot execution there, seems I was able to follow it pretty well and would of followed it regardless of the other movies. Look at it this way just how shocking would the "I am your father" scene been if you had seen the prequals first? It would of been a big "you mean he didn't see that comming moment" What looks so obvious when we know what's comming can be real hidden when you don't. There is no guarantee that people would make the Sidious=Palpatine leap if they did not know anything about Star Wars when they started watching, not to mention, Lucas would of probably hid it better if there wans't the other trilogy. They gave away all the clues to Vader being Lukes Father in Star Wars and Empire, they were more muddled ont he Luke and Leia angle but they dropped hints there too. He just can't do that with the Palpatine thing because everybody knows already. But really this plot isn't all that complicated here, I mean much of it is spelled out to the point of making it too obvious. Where Lucas's execution was crap was in his ability to direct his characters and his silly little details he threw in (Midichlorians......... I hate them almost as much as Planet Ziest). You can't fix acting in post production and you have to work to get good acting when they have to say retarded lines to a tennis ball on a pole. Lucas overtechnologied himself and under directed the actual acting part of it.
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