Are you glad the Star Wars prequels were even made?

[TiQuinn]

I agree with a lot of what you said, jdavis. But I think you're doing all the work for Lucas in this case.

My point is, none of this is coming through in the movies. This grand plot that you've described. What you are telling me and what I'm seeing on the screen are two different things.

 

[Gizzard]

The best part of the movie is on Kamino, that's the part I really loved the most, it was classic leading questions and playing on the fact that the kaminoians were hearing what they wanted and expected to hear (not to mention he was probably using the force to smooth things out too). Why would they of had him killed for any reason, that would be like you going to a car lot and somebody saying here's your car it's already paid for and you saying but I didn't buy a car and them saying oh well I'll have to kill you then. They had no clue what the army was for or what was going on in the galaxy they were just trying to deliver a prepaid for product to the Jedi order who they believed had ordered it.

Going back to this thing, I phrased the dialogue like a joke but don't think I missed the plot point.

Obi-Wan is not picking up a load of groceries, or even a car; he's picking up a million man clone army. Do the Kaminians really not have any security system, not even a stupid paper reciept? Or did the person who ordered the clone army really just say "Any Jedi can pick this army up when they are ready"?? That's nuts. The Kaminians are arms dealers pure and simple; that's a dangerous occupation and I don't see how they lasted long enough to build a huge clone army if they have crappy security.

Maybe my problem is that I've overestimated how powerful a million man clone army is. I imagined that it's probably the most significant fighting force in the galaxy at that time. (This leads to me being amazed that no one can figure out who ordered the clone army. Come on, it's a huge economic investment. There are a handful of of people who have the economic clout to have ordered it and even fewer who could prepay for it. Make a list and start checking off names, it won't take you long.) (It also leads to me calling the Kaminians dumb. I mean who makes the most potent weapon in the galaxy and then sells it to someone without having any idea what they are going to use it for. Didn't they see "The Terminator"? Gun Shop Owner: "Hey, you can't do that!" Arnold: "Wrong.")

Anyway, you can screw around with the plot and make up convoluted reasons why it still makes sense (for some good laughs, check out David Brin's articles on the subject here http://www.davidbrin.com/starwarsarticle1.html ) but I have to agree with KidCuthuhu, who said it so much more pithily than I did:

I just don't buy that the inconsistent logic and general plot holes were deliberately created by Lucas as part of a subtle and delicate screenplay.

Exactly so.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I agree with a lot of what you said, jdavis. But I think you're doing all the work for Lucas in this case.

My point is, none of this is coming through in the movies. This grand plot that you've described. What you are telling me and what I'm seeing on the screen are two different things.

Of course none of this is coming through in the movies. If he tied everything together in episode II, there would be little point to episode III. That's why its called a trilogy. Episode II creates a mystery (granted, anyone capable of following the bouncing ball can piece it together without episode III), but the exposition you seem to think is lacking will happen in episode III. If you haven't put it together with the clues you've already been given then Lucas is succeeding beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Thanks for the Brin article; interesting stuff.

Aside: his discussion of the Campbellian storytelling technique immediately reminded me not only of a host of sci-fi, fantasy, and historical fiction, but also explains the success of the Baldur's Gate computer game series:

In these classic tales, the hero begins reluctant, yet signs and portents foretell his pre-ordained greatness. He receives dire warnings and sage wisdom from a mentor, acquires quirky-but-faithful companions, faces a series of steepening crises, explores the pit of his own fears and emerges triumphant to bring some boon/talisman/victory home to his admiring tribe/people/nation.

Now if only I coud pull that off with a D&D campaign without making one of the players out as the DM's pet with everyone else his sidekicks ...

 

[TiQuinn]

Sorry, I think you're giving Lucas way too much credit. He's made two bad movies, and I don't believe it's all part of a grand design on his part, and that he's going to knock it out of the park in the next film.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Sorry, I think you're giving Lucas way too much credit. He's made two bad movies, and I don't believe it's all part of a grand design on his part, and that he's going to knock it out of the park in the next film.

If by bad movies, you mean bad dialog, wooden acting, and some scenes that were just lame (pod racing, IMO), then I would agree that they don't measure up. If you mean that JDavis' text block from hell explanation doesn't summarize the plot, then I think you'll be surprised. Since we have episodes IV - VI we know that most of what he said is absolutely true, and the rest of it only makes sense, if everything is taken in context.

 

[jdavis]

Going back to this thing, I phrased the dialogue like a joke but don't think I missed the plot point.

Obi-Wan is not picking up a load of groceries, or even a car; he's picking up a million man clone army. Do the Kaminians really not have any security system, not even a stupid paper reciept? Or did the person who ordered the clone army really just say "Any Jedi can pick this army up when they are ready"?? That's nuts. The Kaminians are arms dealers pure and simple; that's a dangerous occupation and I don't see how they lasted long enough to build a huge clone army if they have crappy security.

Maybe my problem is that I've overestimated how powerful a million man clone army is. I imagined that it's probably the most significant fighting force in the galaxy at that time. (This leads to me being amazed that no one can figure out who ordered the clone army. Come on, it's a huge economic investment. There are a handful of of people who have the economic clout to have ordered it and even fewer who could prepay for it. Make a list and start checking off names, it won't take you long.) (It also leads to me calling the Kaminians dumb. I mean who makes the most potent weapon in the galaxy and then sells it to someone without having any idea what they are going to use it for. Didn't they see "The Terminator"? Gun Shop Owner: "Hey, you can't do that!" Arnold: "Wrong.")

Anyway, you can screw around with the plot and make up convoluted reasons why it still makes sense (for some good laughs, check out David Brin's articles on the subject here http://www.davidbrin.com/starwarsarticle1.html ) but I have to agree with KidCuthuhu, who said it so much more pithily than I did:



Exactly so.

I'm not screwing around with he plot I'm just telling you what it really is. This isn't my interpretation it's what is going on. This is the plot of the movies. There are a million different worlds out there and more people and races than you can even count, I thought it was a 100,000 man army myself but even at 1 million it wasn't all that (There are droid armies out there with 10 times that number). Heck even when you just compare it to Earth, the Russians lost 500,000 troops in the battle of Stalingrad. 1 million troops on a Galactic scale is a freaking personal guard (US armed Forces run about 1.4 million active duty troops), it wouldn't even cost all that when say compared to the upkeep of a million worlds, You have a massive beurocracy here, I mean it's a galactic massive one, do you know how easy it would be for the Channellor to slip a little out here and there, we can't keep up it one countries spending in the US how could anybody keep up with the spending of a million planets? Off the top of your head name every town in the world with more than 500 people.... Ok go to the library and do a days research and then name them...... You can't, Well that's not a drop in the bucket compared to a million planets full of people. You are missing the scale here, You could loose a million person clone army and forget where you placed it as easy as forgetting where you parked your car at the mall. Besides in the old Republic nobody would pretend to be a Jedi, they got a order from the Jedi council were expecting a Jedi and a Jedi showed up, it would be unheard of to ever doubt the word of a Jedi that he was in fact a Jedi, it was the fact that for tens of thousands of years people trusted that the Jedi were the Jedi that allowed Palpatine to manuver the way he did, nobody would ever expect somebody who was not a Jedi to say they were. Once again there is the scale thing to look at, Yoda was 800 years old, that would put him at being born around the time of the Norman invasion of England. Jedi had been Jedi for so long that people would even have a hard time finding reference to a time before the Jedi in a library, this isn't a old system of government it's a system of government that goes back longer than all of Earth's recorded history. To 99% of the population attacking a Jedi was tatamount to suicide (as they portrayed it at the first of Phantom Menace). The Kaminoans were honored to do buisness with the Jedi, they were a isolationist society on the outer rim who probably had very little contact with Jedi and mostly knew them through legend, they expected a Jedi to come check on the army, and a Jedi came to check on the army (gee wonder if that was a set up too), Then shortly after that the 800 year old Jedi Master Yoda (do you think they questioned Yoda?) showed up and picked up the army (Obi Wan didn't pick up the army he just looked at it). These people are cloners not arms dealers, heck they were all clones themselves, they probably did a lot of different types of clones and most likely did buisness with a wide variety of characters, and it wasn't in their nature to mistrust a Jedi, that was unheard of. The story isn't perfect but come on do you think it was a written to be a big coincidence? I'm not making excuses or twisting things for reasons, I am giving a plot synopsis of what the story was. It's a fact it was written to work the way it worked yes there may be some loopholes (every movie ever made has some) but this is the storyline it was all set up by Palpatine in advance the whole thing was a trap he designed. The galaxy is huge there are near infinite people out there, that is the context the story is set in, you can't use real world context for it.

(I gave up on the link half way down the page, the guy has a personal agenda and is all over the place.)

 

[Mark]

Sorry, I think you're giving Lucas way too much credit. He's made two bad movies...

Only two...?

 

[barsoomcore]

He's made two bad movies...

Somewhere, there is a DVD of Howard the Duck you have yet to encounter...

 

[jdavis]

Sorry, I think you're giving Lucas way too much credit. He's made two bad movies, and I don't believe it's all part of a grand design on his part, and that he's going to knock it out of the park in the next film.

You do realize he's made a lot more than the Star Wars movies don't you..... You do realize he's one of the most sucessful people in the film industy ever don't you. I mean come on I don't even care for the prequel movies myself but come on you got to give him a little credit here (the storylines for the Indiana Jones movies were his too, he's not a moron). It's not some grand design here, you have completly missed the obvious plot of the movies. whether the next movie is good or not remains to be seen but I can garantee it will be revealed that Palpatine was behind it all (I know this because I have seen freaking Star Wars, in the end of the next movie the bad guys win, oops maybe I should of put that in spoiler tags). I'm not giving Lucas too much credit I'm telling what the plot was, Lucas blew it with his silly little diner scenes and his horrible love story dialog and his love for clumsy digital characters. If you don't like the plot that's fine but it still is the plot of the movie. This isn't my interpretation of it, it's the plot of the movie, it was all set up by Palpatine, it's the plot of both movies. Yes it's not perfect but it is the storyline, I'm just explaining it. The story would probably work better if the first three did not exist yet and they were all in order, but he's shooting the movies to be watched in order so he's not giving away the obvious Palpatine/Sidious connection (it wouldn't be as obvious if the first three Star Wars movies didn't exist but I'm sure he would of shot it to be even more of a mystery in that case). And Yes the outline for these three movies has existed since 1976 (along with the outline for three more after Jedi), that's pretty common knowledge among even casual Star Wars fans. Lucas planned for a 9 movie arc but technology wouldn't let him pull it off then. Star Wars was pulled out of the middle of his story arc (that's why it's called episode 4 even in the original). It's all the same storyline from Phantom Menace through three movie after Jedi which will probably never be made, it's only the details Lucas added when he wrote these scripts the story outline already existed, and it's in the details where the movies fall flat.