Are you glad the Star Wars prequels were even made?

[Kai Lord]

I'll take this one.

Interesting that you neglect to mention the one scene from the prequels I did feel was on par with the originals: Anakin departing the Lars homestead to search for his mother.

Him staring at the twin sunset in the exact same place where an angst ridden Luke would one day look longingly at the horizon. Then the shadow he cast on the hut when embracing Amidala before the rousing score as he strode to the speeder bike and blasted off.

That was Star Wars to me. That was something that a young Darth Vader would do. That alone took me back to the epic grandeur of the first three films.

I also loved how they brilliantly explained the "look" Uncle Owen gives Beru in the original Star Wars when Luke mentions that the droids belong to someone named "Obi-Wan." In AOTC when they're all standing at Shmi's grave 3PO comes rushing out of the ship saying they have an urgent message from Obi-Wan Kenobi, right in full earshot of Owen and Beru.

Then Anakin and Amidala hurriedly depart and as a result Anakin goes off on an adventure, has an arm amputated, is assumedly kicked out of the Jedi Order, and eventually "killed." No wonder Owen would be against Luke seeking out Kenobi and following in his father's footsteps.

For all the gaping continuity errors between the trilogies, that tie-in was spectacular.

As for the poll, I still voted "No, because they detract too much from the originals." TPM was just horrid in that regard. Midichlorians. Anakin building C-3PO. The Jedi at the peak of their supposed badassedness being nothing but incompetent bureaucrats. Introducing Gungans into the saga. Midichlorians. Liam Neeson being Obi-Wan's instructor instead of Yoda. Oh, and midichlorians.

AOTC wasn't too bad, young Boba Fett was awesome and Jango Woo Fett was pretty cool. The Clone Battle had ZERO narrative weight (it was one giant field test, whoopedy doo) and the Death Star being designed by *bugs* instead of Imperials was downright stupid. At least the Clonetroopers looked badass. Maybe they'll get to do something that actually means something in Episode III.

 

[John Crichton]

Interesting that you neglect to mention the one scene from the prequels I did feel was on par with the originals: Anakin departing the Lars homestead to search for his mother.

Him staring at the twin sunset in the exact same place where an angst ridden Luke would one day look longingly at the horizon. Then the shadow he cast on the hut when embracing Amidala before the rousing score as he strode to the speeder bike and blasted off.

Oops, thought I did. Must have missed that one in my haste. I loved that scene with the modified Vader theme playing in the background.

Looking back at my post, I didn't specify but that was part of the "Anakin rage" sequence. Good stuff.

 

[John Crichton]

As for the poll, I still voted "No, because they detract too much from the originals." TPM was just horrid in that regard. Midichlorians. Anakin building C-3PO. The Jedi at the peak of their supposed badassedness being nothing but incompetent bureaucrats. Introducing Gungans into the saga. Midichlorians. Liam Neeson being Obi-Wan's instructor instead of Yoda. Oh, and midichlorians.

Midichlorians didn't bug me. The tech level was high enough for them to be able to detect that kind of thing. It meant nothing to me in the movie and I didn't dwell on it.

AOTC wasn't too bad, young Boba Fett was awesome and Jango Woo Fett was pretty cool. The Clone Battle had ZERO narrative weight (it was one giant field test, whoopedy doo) and the Death Star being designed by *bugs* instead of Imperials was downright stupid. At least the Clonetroopers looked badass. Maybe they'll get to do something that actually means something in Episode III.

Field test? That's a bit harsh. It was the start of the Clone War, the impetus for Boba's hate of the Jedi and the further falling of Anakin in his battle with Dooku. Good enough for me.

As for the Death Star not being designed by the Empire - I never thought it was.

 

[Kai Lord]

Field test? That's a bit harsh. It was the start of the Clone War, the impetus for Boba's hate of the Jedi and the further falling of Anakin in his battle with Dooku.

No, those were the results of the events that took place in the arena (Mace killing Boba's father and Dooku fueling Anakin's rage by having his droids kill the Jedi.) The *arrival* of the Clones definitely impacted the story, because they saved the good guys, the following field test against the droids meant nothing, however. There were no stakes in that battle. No drama. No tension.

A mere diversion to Anakin and Obi-Wan as they followed Dooku.

As for the Death Star not being designed by the Empire - I never thought it was.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." --Vader to an Imperial Officer.

 

[John Crichton]

No, those were the results of the events that took place in the arena (Mace killing Boba's father and Dooku fueling Anakin's rage by having his droids kill the Jedi.) The *arrival* of the Clones definitely impacted the story, because they saved the good guys, the following field test against the droids meant nothing, however. There were no stakes in that battle. No drama. No tension.

A mere diversion to Anakin and Obi-Wan as they followed Dooku.

That battle didn't last all that long. It was onscreen for a few minutes. The 40 minutes sequence as a whole was excellent. The wars scenes may have been gratuitous to you. There were scenes like that in LotR as well but I loved them just the same. Hammer the same scenes in Star Wars all you like, no big. I wish you enjoyed them as I did.

Edit: The battle scenes that accompanied Anakin and Obi-wan's persuit showed the prowess of the clone army and the leadership ability of Yoda and Windu. I'll admit they were there for some eye-candy as well. However, those scenes didn't mean nothing. There was the tension of stopping the ships from getting into orbit which was important to the battle. If those ships are all grounded (in addition to Dooku being captured) the war never begins.

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." --Vader to an Imperial Officer.

Yes, the Empire constructed the Death Star as in they built it from a set of plans. Doesn't mean they designed it. I'm not saying you are wrong, I am saying there are multiple ways to take where the Death Star came from.

 

[Kai Lord]

That battle didn't last all that long. It was onscreen for a few minutes. The 40 minutes sequence as a whole was excellent. The wars scenes may have been gratuitous to you. There were scenes like that in LotR as well but I loved them just the same. Hammer the same scenes in Star Wars all you like, no big. I wish you enjoyed them as I did.

If the Clone Battle at the end of AOTC was comparable to any of the battles in the LOTR films, far be it from me to press my point and risk diminishing it in your eyes.

It definitely looked cool as hell, can't argue with that.

 

[Gizzard]

I'll take this one.

I loved every scene with Obi-wan. His investigation, from Coruscant to Kamino to Geonosis was quite cool. The Kamino sequence (no, not just the awesome fight) was very well done. This was one of the few parts of the film where Lucas' directing actually impressed me. It was beat-for-beat very cool. The introduction of the clone troopers, with the Imperial March variant playing in the background was creepy and foreboding.

I'm just going to pick this first one since it's convenient rather than debating the whole post. ;-)

To start, I'll admit that Ewan McGregor is one of the better things in the movie, somehow managing to capture what I consider to be the classic Star Wars spirit in his performance. I'll give you that. He's still kicked around by GL's poor script, but he does a generally good job.

Still, look at this investigation sequence. Obi-Wan as a character is just all over the map. Is Obi-Wan really supposed to be dense or is scene in Yoda's classroom just something that GL randomly threw into the movie. Look, children tell Obi-Wan what is obvious to the audience -- that the planet Kamino is not really missing! Uh, OK. Did Obi-Wan really not think of this on the way over from the library?

The more I think about this, the more I think I am on to something. GL intends Obi-Wan to come across as dim. Would he have even gotten off of Kamino if the Kamin-ians hadn't been even dumber than him?

Random Kamin-ian: "Hi, we'd like to give you a Clone Army."
Obi-Wan: "Oh. Well, yes, I would like that, I guess. Um...."
Random Kamin-ian: "Yes?"
Obi-Wan: "About the Clone Army....do you mind telling me who I am picking it up for?"
Random Kamin-ian: "Sure, we'll tell you. Your odd behavior has not aroused our suspicions at all."

In any sensible world, this is what should have happened:

Random Kamin-ian: "Hi, you must be here to pick up the Clone Army. Do you have your reciept?"
Obi-Wan: "Clone Army? Reciept? I don't know what you are talking about."
Random Kamin-ian: "Guards. Have this man killed."

Of course, the same thing should have happened on Geonosis too. Christopher Lee should know how dangerous Obi-Wan is, but he falls victim to the old "sharks with laser-beams" villian trap. "I won't kill you, I'll put you in an arena to be killed, despite the fact I know you are a powerful Jedi." I could forgive that if there was any reason for there to be an arena on Geonosis (can you imagine Dooky's reputation in the rest of the Republic if he's running a gladatorial arena?) or if I thought that Dooku wanted to make a big public spectacle of killing his foes ("Oh, I'm sure no-one will ever find out that I've had ex-Queen Amidala killed in an arena...") rather than just doing it quietly like he should.

All of this is stuff that makes no sense, but GL felt it would make a great spectacle so, plot be damned, let there be a gladatorial game on Geonosis. But that's my compaint about EpI & EpII; all spectacle and no sense.

Tangent3: I voted that the movies never should have been made, thinking that someone else could have eventually done them better if GL had left the whole thing alone. But really thats too harsh; I've gotten at least $18 worth of fun ripping on these two movies. Even if it hurt to sit through them. ;-)

 

[John Crichton]

Still, look at this investigation sequence. Obi-Wan as a character is just all over the map. Is Obi-Wan really supposed to be dense or is scene in Yoda's classroom just something that GL randomly threw into the movie. Look, children tell Obi-Wan what is obvious to the audience -- that the planet Kamino is not really missing! Uh, OK. Did Obi-Wan really not think of this on the way over from the library?

You are taking it too literally, I think. Obi-wan knows that it is not really missing. But he has full faith in the Jedi archives and the knowledge there. When he goes to Yoda, he is simply looking for validation from a friend and mentor for something that is unthinkable up to this point: the Jedi are wrong and their records either flawed or tampered with.

The more I think about this, the more I think I am on to something. GL intends Obi-Wan to come across as dim. Would he have even gotten off of Kamino if the Kamin-ians hadn't been even dumber than him?

Random Kamin-ian: "Hi, we'd like to give you a Clone Army."
Obi-Wan: "Oh. Well, yes, I would like that, I guess. Um...."
Random Kamin-ian: "Yes?"
Obi-Wan: "About the Clone Army....do you mind telling me who I am picking it up for?"
Random Kamin-ian: "Sure, we'll tell you. Your odd behavior has not aroused our suspicions at all."

In any sensible world, this is what should have happened:

Random Kamin-ian: "Hi, you must be here to pick up the Clone Army. Do you have your reciept?"
Obi-Wan: "Clone Army? Reciept? I don't know what you are talking about."
Random Kamin-ian: "Guards. Have this man killed."

That was maybe in your script. You seem to have no idea what these aliens think like. They are in it for the business (read: money) as established by the diner scene back on Coruscant. A member of the organization that has placed an order has shown up after a delay to pick up an order. They have already paid and everyone in the galaxy knows who the Jedi are.

Makes sense to me.

Of course, the same thing should have happened on Geonosis too. Christopher Lee should know how dangerous Obi-Wan is, but he falls victim to the old "sharks with laser-beams" villian trap. "I won't kill you, I'll put you in an arena to be killed, despite the fact I know you are a powerful Jedi." I could forgive that if there was any reason for there to be an arena on Geonosis (can you imagine Dooky's reputation in the rest of the Republic if he's running a gladatorial arena?) or if I thought that Dooku wanted to make a big public spectacle of killing his foes ("Oh, I'm sure no-one will ever find out that I've had ex-Queen Amidala killed in an arena...") rather than just doing it quietly like he should.

All of this is stuff that makes no sense, but GL felt it would make a great spectacle so, plot be damned, let there be a gladatorial game on Geonosis. But that's my compaint about EpI & EpII; all spectacle and no sense.

Dooku is not the leader of that planet. He has some power as a diplomat but not total power. The arena was obviously there for the natural inhabitants. In exchange for their loyalty, Dooku has to honor their customs. They put prisoners in the arena to be slaughtered for public spectical which is not so foreign a concept. They were killing people who had commited crimes which seemed to me to be a pretty easy way for them to have some fun. If your culture/planet has a big-ass arena you'd think they would use it from time to time. Dooku only got involved when things got out of hand and the Jedi showed up and barely, even then. The Trade Federation Trade Viceroy was there and wanted Padme and the rest dead, they controlled the droids.

And yes, it does make a good spectical but it wasn't there for no reason. If it was some tiny, enclosed arena with Dooku watching and giggling like an idiot in the corner by himself, then I would say it was stupid.

Or maybe, you just didn't get it. But it's all good. Different strokes for different folks. Maybe you didn't want to get it. I've been there.

 

[jdavis]

I bought into Obi Wan having a hard time believing somebody had changed the archive records, they made a big point of showing that this was a absolutly foriegn prospect to them and the librarian actually believed that it was imposible. Obi Wan's question for Yoda wasn't where is the Planet, it was why is it not in the archives.

The best part of the movie is on Kamino, that's the part I really loved the most, it was classic leading questions and playing on the fact that the kaminoians were hearing what they wanted and expected to hear (not to mention he was probably using the force to smooth things out too). Why would they of had him killed for any reason, that would be like you going to a car lot and somebody saying here's your car it's already paid for and you saying but I didn't buy a car and them saying oh well I'll have to kill you then. They had no clue what the army was for or what was going on in the galaxy they were just trying to deliver a prepaid for product to the Jedi order who they believed had ordered it. This is one of the tightest points in either of the two movies, the jedi were manipulated into going there and picking up a army the Kaminians were manipulated into building thinking they were for the Jedi so it would all be ready at the exact time there was a Galactic rebellion. I think you missed the point that the Kaminoians were not bad guys or in on what was going on, they were just being manipulated to insure a army was ready for Palpatine so he could manuver a civil war into happening so he could become a dictator. They were just pawns in all this.

As far as Dooku not killing Obi Wan well of course he didn't he wasn't ready to reveal himself as a Sith Lord yet. Better to let the stupid bug people do it so he could claim he had tried to stop them. Look I hated the bug people and I disliked the arena scene but it did make sense the way it played out. I mean it was all manipulated to put pieces in certain positions at certain times, Dooku wasn't on the other side he was manipulating them into starting the war Palpatine wanted he was on his own side. Dooku wasn't the leader of the bug people he was the person who was inciting the separtist movement, All he had to do to clear himself of any wrongdoing in Amadala's execution was to say "it wasn't my fault, it was the bug people I tried to stop them". Also you have to wonder if the whole big public execution thing was just a elaborate trap to draw the jedi into, I mean it obviously was but maybe it was all planned to be that way. Heck just like the huge battle on Geonosis wasn't meaningless it was the culmination of a carefully laid trap by the Sith Lords over a ten year period. Every single little thing that happened happened by Palpatine's design (remember he can see the future too, that goes back to Empire and Jedi). Everything happened according to his design, he manipulated both sides into a war for the sole purpose of him becoming a dictator and you don't really think the separatist were ever a real threat, it was a war he designed that he knew he could win for the express purpose of eliminating the Jedi order. Heck even the Death Star thing, Dooku manipulated the Geonoshians into designing it and then stole the plans and took them to Palpatine, there was never any way that Palpatine or Dooku would of let the Geonoshians build a Death Star, Palpatine wanted the Republic to win in the end, that's how the empire was formed. Heck Dooku acting all upset about the big attack was just a act, it's what he had been working to see happen, he had planned out everything including his escape route, I mean do you think Palpatine was unaware of the impending attack on Geonosis or the Jedi order leaving to rescue Obi Wan? How hard would it of been for him to call his student and tell him to be ready. Let me reiterate, The whole thing was a big giant set up, every little detail was planned by Palpatine (maybe even what happened to Anikin on Tatooine). He can see the future and his student is running the other side, it's all a big set up that worked to perfection. As much as I fault the movies I did get what was going on and how it tied into what happened in Jedi.

 

[Tom Cashel]

To add a little bit, Obi-Wan's arrogance and not-insignificant amount of denseness are well-established in the OT, as well as the prequels.

Or did you imagine that the Jedi who inadvertently brought about the DARTH VADER scenario (through a combination of action, inaction, and unwillingness to see what is right in front of his eyes), then lied to Luke about it for years, was a character without flaws?