Are you looking forward to Magic of Incarnum?

[Mystery Man]

Well, I wasn't interested in it until the latest preview. Damn Wizards of the Coast and their giving me more books I might be interested in buying!

Demiurge out.

The latest preview had the exact opposite effect on me. I'll be skipping this one most likely.

 

[Dalamar]

Odd thought of the day: What if the alienist were turned into an Incarnum core class along the line of the totemist (less combatative, though), with soulmelds based on aberrations and oozes? Good idea, bad idea?

I had the same kind of thought, but with the soulknife class.

 

[Andor]

No, it isn't. Not at all.

Out of curiosity, what Ki use do you want to portray that you can't model with a PsiWarrior? I can't really think of any Ki effect I've seen in fiction that couldn't be handled by a slightly modified Power list (Or even just use of the extra power feat) and some redefined special effects.

 

[Ashanderai]

I just knew I was going to get lynched as soon as I bit that first carrot about psionics.

Projecting internal energies outside of your body for supernatural results isnt Ki use?

What you state right here isn't strictly psionics either according to the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Those internal projected energies are just as easily a form of magic. To be precise, I never said that you cannot use psionics to simulate a ki-using magic system. I said that psionics is not ki-use. To quote the Expanded Psionics Handbook, page 4: "Simply put, psionics is the art of tapping the mind's potential." That is about the mind's potential power, not the body and soul's. There is a lot more there that supports my view also, but I see no need to quote it all. Throughout the XPH, it goes on expounding upon that view of psionics and expanding it to grant the mind control over powers related to the body and over physics and even magic. But at its essence it is not ki-use. The mechanics can be used to simulate ki-use, however flawed, but for some of us who have researched ki in mythology, religion, and martial arts the psionics rules do not satisfactorily handle ki-use. Psionics, to me, feels more like new age religion/magic/science of the mind and has very little to do with ki (especially when I think about the crystal stuff).

The Players Handbook on page 39 in the characteristics paragraph of the Monk class description even shows us that Wizards of the Coast doesn't even define ki-use as psionics or vice versa; it is defined as a subtle energy related to magic. Yes, I know the psionics book came out after the PH, but neither did the 3.5 revisions of both of these books change this definition. If the terms are/were synonymous, then why use separate terms for characters with these powers? Wizards of the Coast further emphasized the difference when they created a prestige class designed to merge the two concepts, the Fist of Zuoken. It is my experience that many western, and even many eastern, people who do not consciously deal with the concept normally in some aspects of their lives, do not have a good understanding of what the concept of ki is. Most learn from cinema, which is often filled with erroneous information (big surprise there, right).

Ki, simply put, is breath. Breath is air from the environment, processed by the body, which is in turn controlled by the mind; a mind which cannot exist without a soul. Ki, ch'i, chi, qi or whatever other spelling you might want to use, in the mythology and religions of the world is not strictly a power that originates with the mind. Most often it is described as the energy that is derived from a union of, primarily, the soul, the mind, and the body interacting with the environment; breath. There are two aspects of ki; positive yang and negative yin. Ki works best when it is in balance. Ki is far less likely to be used by someone in ill health because if their ki were in balance they would not have become ill to begin with. The mind only has as much to do with that as the soul and body; no more, no less. Furthermore, blood has a great deal to do with the processing of ki since it distributes particular aspects of breath throughout the body, delivering nutrients that allows the body to live (an aspect of yang), while removing toxins from the body that then leave as exhaled breath (an aspect of yin).

Other important considerations for ki (again, depending on your research source) are chakras, mudras, and mantras. Psionics has none of these and it has no positive or negative aspects to it that have an impact on how it works in the game system and neither does ki as it exists in WotC's take on it at present. Psionics does not depend on breathing any moreso than does any other aspect of the game.

Ki is also defined as an energy that comes up from the earth that can reinforce the power, strength, and leverage of the body. Modern science likes to define it as strictly a matter of a form of body alignment that structurally reinforces leverage, but even science falls short of explaining all manifestations of ki.

Also, depending on the myths you choose to use for research, you may find references to ki energy as an existing force in the natural world, often referred to as dragon lines. Dragon lines are flows of ki that exist in the world flowing on its own while interacting with the environment. There is nothing like this in psionics.

In my opinion, in the absence of better rules for ki, most of the psionics rules makes an acceptable short-term substitute for powers derived from ki-use, but I can almost see an argument for using the standard magic rules (which at least have positive and negative energy descriptors, though using them as is would be a bit of a wrong fit, too).

Whatever ki use is, it might be different from mind to mind. For some, even the monk may be enough.

As for MoI having Open Content - that is extremely unlikely. There may be a better chance that it ends up in the SRD one day, but I wouldn't count on it.

I have seen a lot of myths about what ki is, but yes, I would have to agree that different people (usually, but not always, only informed by cinema on the subject) have different opinions on what ki is and all opinions are equally valid for expressing point of view, however much or little fact is involved. If, by your mind to mind comment, you mean 'in character', see above for my opinion on that. For me, the monk as is, is not enough for a ki-use system.

Open content was a poor selection of words, but you never know. I meant to address the issue of whether or not Magic of Incarnum is added to the SRD.

Don't get me wrong. I like psionics, but for what it is and could be in an elegant way, not for how I can shoehorn it into something else. In other words, I don't want my psionics in my ki and I don't want my ki in my psionics.

*sigh* Obviously, if I want a decent Ki-using system that uses the elements I discussed above with a round-by-round resource system, then I will have to create it from scratch rather than cobbling it together from the Incarnum system as I had previously hoped to do.

/hijack

Regarding Magic of Incarnum: I knew it would not cover ki-use, but my hopes were that it would have a system that I could easily adapt to ki-use; especially since the book was discussing souls, chakras, and round by round resource management. What I have seen in the previews so far makes adapting the new system look more and more difficult. I had also hoped that the totemist would somehow channel knowledge, skills, and abilities from the souls of ancestors and nature totems, but it does nothing like this. Instead it creates objects from incarnum that have bestial abilities. In itself pretty cool, but it falls short of my expectations. The ideas with chakras still look promising, though, as does the round by round aspect of essentia, but not as promising as before. The race entry was just totally disappointing for me. I don't know why - maybe because, as someone else put it, they appear to be a new kind of elf, or maybe because they simply lack ooomph for me (I don't mind new elves necessarily because I don't have to use them anyway - just make them stand out more). My real hope though hinged on the ideas of the soulborn and the incarnate, but the mention of them in the interview turned me off as far as any hope of using them for ki-users. I think they sound cool otherwise - much cooler than the totemist looks. But, then I remember the disappointment I feel with the totemist and I despair again. That is why this book looks like a purchase from me will go 50/50 until I can flip through it in the store.

 

[Andor]

I dunno, it seems to me your objection to the Psi rules seems to mostly be a hang-up on flavor text. Rewrite it if you don't like it. ^^ And it should be possible to come up with either a 'Gather Chi' mechanic to replace the daily allotment, or a fixed number of points by level to redistribute round by round if you like. That would certainly change the flavor, and it would be possible, if a fair amount of work to balance it to. A lot of powers would basically lose their limited durations under that set-up so you may need to cap the number that can be up at once.

Actually at this point we're starting to sound like Incarnum... Well in any event remember that if you find a nice set of mechanics it's always possible to jigger with the flavor text and special effects.

So to un-hijack the thread, if Incarnum guys can actually make their own equipment, how does that interact with a Vow of Poverty?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

So to un-hijack the thread, if Incarnum guys can actually make their own equipment, how does that interact with a Vow of Poverty?

I suspect messily.

Soulmelds will likely have to be considered equipment for the vow, otherwise things will get very ugly very quickly.

 

[SteveC]

"Mixed feelings"? "Cautiously optimistic"?

I'm all about magic books... probably my favorite type of crunchy supplement when done well.

But I'm not all about "new magic systems". Even when they are done well, even if they are really innovative and interesting, they are hard to work into the game. But all too often, they aren't what they are cracked up to be.

To make it worth it, a new magic system has to really add something to my game to be worth adding.

I think I'll relegate this one to "wait and flip through it at the FLGS" status, like I did Weapons of Legacy and Heroes of Battle. Thankfully.

Hey Psion,
As ENWorld's only other fan of the Second World Sourcebook, does any of this look like the rules for the Wardens to you?

Just wondering...

Oh, and put me into the "see it, read it, and then decide" crowd.

--Steve

 

[Imruphel]

I'm another who won't be buying (nor did I buy Weapons of Legacy). I really don't need new systems. I'm much more interested in campaign-related stuff whether for FR or Eberron.

 

[ForceUser]

Sorry, I have too many other books to buy and not enough interest in tacking on yet-another-magic-system. (I already have arcane, divine, psionic and artifice to worry about).

Like WoL, neat idea, but too far down on my list. Rather get Magic of Eberron or Heroes of Horror.

Word. I'm with Remathilis.

 

[Psion]

I just knew I was going to get lynched as soon as I bit that first carrot about psionics.
What you state right here isn't strictly psionics either according to the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Those internal projected energies are just as easily a form of magic. To be precise, I never said that you cannot use psionics to simulate a ki-using magic system. I said that psionics is not ki-use. To quote the Expanded Psionics Handbook, page 4: "Simply put, psionics is the art of tapping the mind's potential." That is about the mind's potential power, not the body and soul's. There is a lot more there that supports my view also, but I see no need to quote it all. Throughout the XPH, it goes on expounding upon that view of psionics and expanding it to grant the mind control over powers related to the body and over physics and even magic. But at its essence it is not ki-use. The mechanics can be used to simulate ki-use, however flawed, but for some of us who have researched ki in mythology, religion, and martial arts the psionics rules do not satisfactorily handle ki-use. Psionics, to me, feels more like new age religion/magic/science of the mind and has very little to do with ki (especially when I think about the crystal stuff).

Okay, it seems like you are cherry picking your sources and stances here. If you are arguing that the rules don't say that psionics = ki, I would have to agree with you. And you also say that you aren't claiming that you can't use psionics to emulate ki-using magic. That's all I am saying. I'll go a step further and say that looking at this from a vantage point of representing supernatural powers in the entirety of a game world, I consider it counter-intuitive to cobble up two entirely different magic systems that are doing the same thing. So AFAIAC, ki and psionics are just the same "elephant" being described from the vantage points of different in game culures.

The Players Handbook on page 39 in the characteristics paragraph of the Monk class description even shows us that Wizards of the Coast doesn't even define ki-use as psionics or vice versa;

Again, not that I am supporting the notion that this is an official stance of anyone at wizards, but that really doesn't say much since outside of sidebars and XPH itself, Wizards doesn't talk about psionic. That bears not at all on the issue.

it is defined as a subtle energy related to magic. Yes, I know the psionics book came out after the PH, but neither did the 3.5 revisions of both of these books change this definition.

I think you answered that yourself.

AFAIAC, the logical thing to do in the next edition of the game would be to make the monk and the psychic warrior one and the same. When I think them being the same, I think of the conceptual synergy, not the flavor text of the RAW.

It is my experience that many western, and even many eastern, people who do not consciously deal with the concept normally in some aspects of their lives, do not have a good understanding of what the concept of ki is. Most learn from cinema, which is often filled with erroneous information (big surprise there, right).

If you think my stance on the issue is one of analyzing the authentic vice cinematic takes on the concept, your argument is mildly misplaced.

Ki, simply put, is breath. Breath is air from the environment, processed by the body, which is in turn controlled by the mind; a mind which cannot exist without a soul. Ki, ch'i, chi, qi or whatever other spelling you might want to use, in the mythology and religions of the world is not strictly a power that originates with the mind. Most often it is described as the energy that is derived from a union of, primarily, the soul, the mind, and the body interacting with the environment; breath. There are two aspects of ki; positive yang and negative yin. Ki works best when it is in balance. Ki is far less likely to be used by someone in ill health because if their ki were in balance they would not have become ill to begin with. The mind only has as much to do with that as the soul and body; no more, no less. Furthermore, blood has a great deal to do with the processing of ki since it distributes particular aspects of breath throughout the body, delivering nutrients that allows the body to live (an aspect of yang), while removing toxins from the body that then leave as exhaled breath (an aspect of yin).

And if you had brought this up prior to 3e, that would have dispelled all doubt in my mind.

But under 3e, this seems to me to be just flavor text for the discipline of psychometabolism. And the psychic warrior class, who so strongly resembles historical and cinematic figures who were said to harness ki to attain mastery in combat, sort of drives the point home.

Other important considerations for ki (again, depending on your research source) are chakras, mudras, and mantras.

FYI Chakras have appeared in concept in official material for psionics on the WotC website and in material by the 3e psionics author, Bruce Cordell.

Ki is also defined as an energy that comes up from the earth that can reinforce the power, strength, and leverage of the body.

In the aforementioned material, a character trained in utilizing a particular Chakra draws PPs and healing power while in contact with the earth.

In my opinion, in the absence of better rules for ki, most of the psionics rules makes an acceptable short-term substitute for powers derived from ki-use, but I can almost see an argument for using the standard magic rules (which at least have positive and negative energy descriptors, though using them as is would be a bit of a wrong fit, too).

Indeed. As you said, these forces are supposed to be in balance, where the 3e magic take on negative energy is pretty much strictly, well, negative.

*sigh* Obviously, if I want a decent Ki-using system that uses the elements I discussed above with a round-by-round resource system, then I will have to create it from scratch rather than cobbling it together from the Incarnum system as I had previously hoped to do.

FWIW, I made a ki system for 2e based on many of the concepts discussed. I totally abandoned all such efforts midway though 3e as the takes were so similar in all but the most subtle ways that I felt like I was re-inventing the wheel.