Ars Magica: Lumen Montis, A Covenant in the Alps [OOC]
- Thread starter Cerebral Paladin
- Start date
Feir Fireb
First Post
Yikes! Didn't notice this thread existed until I caught in in CP's sig file....
wrt my arts of competance, I don't have any 9s, but I could get there very easily with Creo, Intellego, and Rego (all above 5). Corpus and Vim are both easily brought to 5s.
Books of some short-to-medium term interest for me include, in no solid order:
Creo [63]
Liber Questionum, lvl 8, Q14 [22]
Rego [71]
Liber Questionum, lvl 10, Q12 [22]
Corpus [55]
Liber Questionum, lvl 5, Q14 [19]
Imaginem [71]
Summa, lvl 10, Q11 [31]
Liber Questionum, lvl 10, Q10 [20]
(nice pairing here...)
Aquam [52]
Summa, lvl. 10, Q8 [28]
Liber Questionum, lv 9, Q15 [24]
(again, pairing...)
Intellego [69]
Tractatus, Q4 (Frosty Breath of the Spoken Lie) [12]
Terram [61]
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q15 [18]
Auram [11]
Liber Questionum, lvl 0, Q11 [11]
Animal [77]
Liber Questionum, lvl 0, Q16 [16]
Muto [70]
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q15 [18]
[12] (though this one is probably easily written)
Too bad the summae are so expensive... but for long-term growth we should especially try to get as many summae as possible. Aquam, Herbam, and Imaginem sound doable.
For some things we may be better off writing low-level summae than LQ.
We might also consider copying high-level LQ or Tractatus that we're less interested in for the moment as potential trades to other covenants.
Thus far, sounds like we may be a bit hamstrung in Perdo and Ignem, and to a lesser extent Animal and Auram.
Question for CP: If creating a single copy of a particular item is well within our means for a season, can we use unexpended time to copy further items of a similar nature (i.e. multiple LQ of with different titles)?
wrt my arts of competance, I don't have any 9s, but I could get there very easily with Creo, Intellego, and Rego (all above 5). Corpus and Vim are both easily brought to 5s.
Books of some short-to-medium term interest for me include, in no solid order:
Creo [63]
Liber Questionum, lvl 8, Q14 [22]
Rego [71]
Liber Questionum, lvl 10, Q12 [22]
Corpus [55]
Liber Questionum, lvl 5, Q14 [19]
Imaginem [71]
Summa, lvl 10, Q11 [31]
Liber Questionum, lvl 10, Q10 [20]
(nice pairing here...)
Aquam [52]
Summa, lvl. 10, Q8 [28]
Liber Questionum, lv 9, Q15 [24]
(again, pairing...)
Intellego [69]
Tractatus, Q4 (Frosty Breath of the Spoken Lie) [12]
Terram [61]
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q15 [18]
Auram [11]
Liber Questionum, lvl 0, Q11 [11]
Animal [77]
Liber Questionum, lvl 0, Q16 [16]
Muto [70]
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q15 [18]
[12] (though this one is probably easily written)
Too bad the summae are so expensive... but for long-term growth we should especially try to get as many summae as possible. Aquam, Herbam, and Imaginem sound doable.
For some things we may be better off writing low-level summae than LQ.
We might also consider copying high-level LQ or Tractatus that we're less interested in for the moment as potential trades to other covenants.
Thus far, sounds like we may be a bit hamstrung in Perdo and Ignem, and to a lesser extent Animal and Auram.
Question for CP: If creating a single copy of a particular item is well within our means for a season, can we use unexpended time to copy further items of a similar nature (i.e. multiple LQ of with different titles)?
anonystu
J'Accuse PirateCat!
I wrote a while back about the vis expenditure being possibly very dangerous up front. I think this is still the case: we should carefully broach whether these books will still be available later, because we're really setting up our covenant first. (Hopefully, the answer is sure!)
Why? Because our local vis is really really variable: will we find lots of vis in our area? Will we find only a little, and have to spend lots and lots of time hunting for more? Will we only just find a minimum amount? Who knows, but regardless, there are many, up-front, must do kind of things: Aegis of the Hearth being the obvious one, unless we want our covenant obliterated by a wandering Flambeau mage, and those will require lots of vis. Potentially, if early vis searching goes poorly, nearly all of it, when you throw in other useful rituals to do.
That's why, both my min/maxing beast and Daniela will be in favor of trying to hold off spending vis until we have a good idea what we're taking in, and what we're losing.
CP, can you get around to that vis summary thing you told me before, but forget?
Why? Because our local vis is really really variable: will we find lots of vis in our area? Will we find only a little, and have to spend lots and lots of time hunting for more? Will we only just find a minimum amount? Who knows, but regardless, there are many, up-front, must do kind of things: Aegis of the Hearth being the obvious one, unless we want our covenant obliterated by a wandering Flambeau mage, and those will require lots of vis. Potentially, if early vis searching goes poorly, nearly all of it, when you throw in other useful rituals to do.
That's why, both my min/maxing beast and Daniela will be in favor of trying to hold off spending vis until we have a good idea what we're taking in, and what we're losing.
CP, can you get around to that vis summary thing you told me before, but forget?
Cerebral Paladin
First Post
Feir Fireb said:
Hmmm. This is a close call. However, as I read the text, it says about LQs and Tractati "A copyist can make a number of copies of a given LQ equal to his Scribe skill in one season" and "a number of copies of an existing tractatus equal to his Scribe skill in one season." I think I'm going to be hard about that: no mixing and matching different LQs or tractati. The multiple copies assumes that you're making several copies of each page, blah blah blah. (In general, I'm taking the most conservative interpretations to ensure that you don't end up massively powerful too quickly.)
You can, however, copy different summae in one season if you're a fast enough scribe. Also, you can probably get Lemannus to loan you a nonGifted scribe if you want to copy additional books; however, nonGifted scribes tend to introduce errors into copies (they need to make a Magic Theory + Int stress roll of 6+ to avoid decreasing the Quality by one; botches reduce Quality even more; any magus with a Magic Theory+Int of 5 or higher won't make any mistakes (and if you don't have a Magic Theory + Int of at leas 5, you're not very well cut out for the Hermetic life)). The extra copies of their books that you can generate would make a good payment.
I'll give the rundown of vis use that Anonystu requested soon.
First, some thoughts on books, some of which may be self-evident. The usual progression for learning from books starts with libri, because the 1/3 Art limit means that most of them are low-level anyway, moves on to summae, and finishes with tractati, because anyone can study a tractatus, regardless of their Art level. Once your Art is equal to half that of the best mage in the world in that Art, you're pretty much done with summae.
I bring this up because this sequence suggests that we may want to deprioritize tractati; we can always trade with Lemannus for them later, when we've used up all the libri and summae that we can find or write for each other.
It also suggests that when possible, people should try to plan their book learning to save the summae until you've exhausted the libri. In the short term, we should try to assign the summae to the mages who are going to be writing the putative low-level libri.
I also revisited the munchkin analysis method I mentioned earlier, because I realized it didn't account for multiple seasons of summa study. Upon the revisit, summae came out extremely well. It's a pity most of them are too expensive for us.
Anyway, the books that interest Marcus most are:
Creo
Summa, lvl 8, Q10 [26]
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q12 [15]
Liber Questionum, lvl 8, Q14 [22]
[I can't make ideal use of the lvl.8 liber right now, but it would be just right after the lvl. 3 liber or the summa. I'm most excited about the summa, though; it's a substantially better value.]
Muto
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q15 [18]
Rego [71]
Liber Questionum, lvl 10, Q12 [22]
[I really want this.]
Aquam
Summa, lvl. 10, Q8 [28]
[I really want this too.]
Herbam
Summa, lvl 12, Q10 [34]
Imaginem
Summa, lvl 10, Q11 [31]
[These summae I don't care about so much, but they're good investments.]
Mentem
Tractatus, Q4 (Aura of Rightful Authority) [12]
[For the reasons discussed above, I think we should try to trade for this at a later date. But I would like to lay hands on it eventually.]
Terram
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q15 [18]
------
I could make good use of the Animal and Corpus lvl. 0 libri, but I gather that we have magi who could write those, and it isn't pressing.
Both the low-level Rego libri are a waste of time; I can write better. I cannot write a lvl. 0 Auram liber yet, but one more level and I'm good to go, if no one else has substantial Auram. I suspect our member yet to appear in Polybius' account may.
I bring this up because this sequence suggests that we may want to deprioritize tractati; we can always trade with Lemannus for them later, when we've used up all the libri and summae that we can find or write for each other.
It also suggests that when possible, people should try to plan their book learning to save the summae until you've exhausted the libri. In the short term, we should try to assign the summae to the mages who are going to be writing the putative low-level libri.
I also revisited the munchkin analysis method I mentioned earlier, because I realized it didn't account for multiple seasons of summa study. Upon the revisit, summae came out extremely well. It's a pity most of them are too expensive for us.
Anyway, the books that interest Marcus most are:
Creo
Summa, lvl 8, Q10 [26]
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q12 [15]
Liber Questionum, lvl 8, Q14 [22]
[I can't make ideal use of the lvl.8 liber right now, but it would be just right after the lvl. 3 liber or the summa. I'm most excited about the summa, though; it's a substantially better value.]
Muto
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q15 [18]
Rego [71]
Liber Questionum, lvl 10, Q12 [22]
[I really want this.]
Aquam
Summa, lvl. 10, Q8 [28]
[I really want this too.]
Herbam
Summa, lvl 12, Q10 [34]
Imaginem
Summa, lvl 10, Q11 [31]
[These summae I don't care about so much, but they're good investments.]
Mentem
Tractatus, Q4 (Aura of Rightful Authority) [12]
[For the reasons discussed above, I think we should try to trade for this at a later date. But I would like to lay hands on it eventually.]
Terram
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q15 [18]
------
I could make good use of the Animal and Corpus lvl. 0 libri, but I gather that we have magi who could write those, and it isn't pressing.
Both the low-level Rego libri are a waste of time; I can write better. I cannot write a lvl. 0 Auram liber yet, but one more level and I'm good to go, if no one else has substantial Auram. I suspect our member yet to appear in Polybius' account may.
Orichalcum
First Post
Books and Stuff
Sorry about not realizing this thread was so active until just now - and I really have no excuse. Anyways, Brigitta has a 10 in Muto, and above 5 in Creo, Herbam, and Animal. Also, she can soon write a Tractatus on Transformation of the Ravenous Beast to the Torpid Toad, so we don't need that.
Creo
Summa, lvl 8, Q10 [26]
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q12 [15]
Liber Questionum, lvl 8, Q14 [22]
Brigitta is fairly excited about the Summa and the Lvl8; the more Creo, the better.
Rego [71]
Liber Questionum, lvl 10, Q12 [22]
[I really want this.]
Herbam
Summa, lvl 12, Q10 [34]
I really really want this.
Terram
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q15 [18]
Wouldn't mind having, but not important.
Corpus [55]
Liber Questionum, lvl 5, Q14 [19]
Rego [71]
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q14 [17]
Liber Questionum, lvl 0, Q14 [14]
------
That's basically it. --Orichalcum
Sorry about not realizing this thread was so active until just now - and I really have no excuse. Anyways, Brigitta has a 10 in Muto, and above 5 in Creo, Herbam, and Animal. Also, she can soon write a Tractatus on Transformation of the Ravenous Beast to the Torpid Toad, so we don't need that.
Creo
Summa, lvl 8, Q10 [26]
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q12 [15]
Liber Questionum, lvl 8, Q14 [22]
Brigitta is fairly excited about the Summa and the Lvl8; the more Creo, the better.
Rego [71]
Liber Questionum, lvl 10, Q12 [22]
[I really want this.]
Herbam
Summa, lvl 12, Q10 [34]
I really really want this.
Terram
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q15 [18]
Wouldn't mind having, but not important.
Corpus [55]
Liber Questionum, lvl 5, Q14 [19]
Rego [71]
Liber Questionum, lvl 3, Q14 [17]
Liber Questionum, lvl 0, Q14 [14]
------
That's basically it. --Orichalcum
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Feir Fireb
First Post
Tractatus
So, even if you'll be able to write a given tractatus sometime soon, it's likely to still be useful. In fact, it's even *more* likely to be useful then, because that means you know the spell and can hence benefit from reading it.
CP, correct me if I'm wrong, but one can benefit from multiple tractatus that cover the same spell as long as a) you haven't written them yourself [that would be cheesy] and b) they're different works. It would be like reading different academic papers on the same subject.
Thus you could have Tractatus #1 on Transformation of the Ravenous Beast to the Torpid Toad (TotRBttTT for short) written by Pseudolus of Magvillus on the susceptability of toad's muscles to unfavorable auras during casting, Tractatus #2 on TotRBttTT by Quasimodo of Fudarus on the essential nature of toad warts, and Tractatus #3 on TotRBttTT by Brigitta of, say, Lumen Montis, on the role that the passage of time plays in ending the spell (or on the particular difficulties of turning a magical goat into a toad). Brigitta could read #1 and #2, but not #3.
Is this right? Although even if Brigitta could only benefit from #1 or #2 but not both, either would still be useful since she and anyone else who could cast the spell might benefit from them, whereas I would not expect her to benefit from #3.
P.S. I'm guessing the Imaginem Summa and LQ would be of greatest interest to me--lots of longterm benefits, and relevant to a few spells I'd really like.
I'll send my reply to Polybius soon, really I will. I've written a lot already, probably more than I should, even without covering a few important points. But recent busyness has kept me from completing it.
So, even if you'll be able to write a given tractatus sometime soon, it's likely to still be useful. In fact, it's even *more* likely to be useful then, because that means you know the spell and can hence benefit from reading it.
CP, correct me if I'm wrong, but one can benefit from multiple tractatus that cover the same spell as long as a) you haven't written them yourself [that would be cheesy] and b) they're different works. It would be like reading different academic papers on the same subject.
Thus you could have Tractatus #1 on Transformation of the Ravenous Beast to the Torpid Toad (TotRBttTT for short) written by Pseudolus of Magvillus on the susceptability of toad's muscles to unfavorable auras during casting, Tractatus #2 on TotRBttTT by Quasimodo of Fudarus on the essential nature of toad warts, and Tractatus #3 on TotRBttTT by Brigitta of, say, Lumen Montis, on the role that the passage of time plays in ending the spell (or on the particular difficulties of turning a magical goat into a toad). Brigitta could read #1 and #2, but not #3.
Is this right? Although even if Brigitta could only benefit from #1 or #2 but not both, either would still be useful since she and anyone else who could cast the spell might benefit from them, whereas I would not expect her to benefit from #3.
P.S. I'm guessing the Imaginem Summa and LQ would be of greatest interest to me--lots of longterm benefits, and relevant to a few spells I'd really like.
I'll send my reply to Polybius soon, really I will. I've written a lot already, probably more than I should, even without covering a few important points. But recent busyness has kept me from completing it.
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Cerebral Paladin
First Post
FF, I need to double-check the rules on Tractati. I think that you're correct, but I want to check my book at home first.
Anonystu asked me to describe some of the uses of raw vis. This will lay out the core uses, with some comments.
1. Vis is needed for rituals. The covenant is going to cast at least one ritual annually (Aegis of the Hearth) and probably will cast several spells as a matter of course and a few more occasionally. These cost one pawn per magnitude (= per 5 levels, rounded up).
2. Vis is important for studying Arts that you have high scores in. When your Art score is higher than any available summae and more than a few levels higher than any available LQs, the only ways to advance are through studying raw vis and through reading tractati. Vis can also be used to study Magic Theory, although that can also be improved by doing other labwork (like inventing spells or enchanting items).
3. Vis can be used to boost spellcasting. That covers a couple of different things; it can be used to let you cast spells that you would otherwise fail at, or would fail to penetrate spell resistance with, but it can also be used to increase duration, range, or target of some spells.
4. Vis can be really important in certamen, where it can always be used.
5. Vis is necessary in the making of any enchanted items, including talismans, familiars, longevity potions, and items imbued with spell effects.
6. Vis is used as the basic item of barter by magi. It's almost a currency of sorts.
As you can see, all of those will be important, with the possible exceptions of 3 and 4 for some characters.
Anonystu asked me to describe some of the uses of raw vis. This will lay out the core uses, with some comments.
1. Vis is needed for rituals. The covenant is going to cast at least one ritual annually (Aegis of the Hearth) and probably will cast several spells as a matter of course and a few more occasionally. These cost one pawn per magnitude (= per 5 levels, rounded up).
2. Vis is important for studying Arts that you have high scores in. When your Art score is higher than any available summae and more than a few levels higher than any available LQs, the only ways to advance are through studying raw vis and through reading tractati. Vis can also be used to study Magic Theory, although that can also be improved by doing other labwork (like inventing spells or enchanting items).
3. Vis can be used to boost spellcasting. That covers a couple of different things; it can be used to let you cast spells that you would otherwise fail at, or would fail to penetrate spell resistance with, but it can also be used to increase duration, range, or target of some spells.
4. Vis can be really important in certamen, where it can always be used.
5. Vis is necessary in the making of any enchanted items, including talismans, familiars, longevity potions, and items imbued with spell effects.
6. Vis is used as the basic item of barter by magi. It's almost a currency of sorts.
As you can see, all of those will be important, with the possible exceptions of 3 and 4 for some characters.
Cerebral Paladin
First Post
Just to follow up on the tractati point: I double-checked and confirmed that FF's interpretation is right. You can study multiple different tractati on the same spell, as long as they are written by different authors. And, of course, you can never benefit by studying your own book. (I suppose if you had lost some of your Arts score, say because of a Perdo Mentem spell, .... Best not to dwell on that possibility, lest I get evil ideas. 
)
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