D&D 5E Assassins, Alignment, and Archetypes

[Tales and Chronicles]

That's fine if all the subclasses have spell slots, but that wasn't the plan. There's nothing wrong with casting as a subclass bit I, much like DBF, am more interested in seeing what can be done without it. You could always take on a 1/3 caster subclass as you own little bit of this bigger idea.

Oh, I understand this preference too, dont mind me too much

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I get what you mean.

On the other hand, if we are building an executioner that works in the default world where magic isnt rare, it kind of make sense to have a class using even a little bit of it to get an edge over its victims.

Rereading the first artificer article, with built-in 1/3 caster (same progression as EK and AT up to 4th level spell at 17th level), magic is very only supplemental to all the other abilities of the class. Its mostly only for utility: invisiblity, passwall, spider climb, protection from poison, darkness, darkvision, enhance ability, sleep.

I often find myself in the opposite situation as you: I try to design newer, more special things for my new classes, but many time its feels like most of them are just spells with another name and a different fluff, but with the same effects.

Spells per/day abilities aren't uncommon and it might be the easiest way to implement spells in the class. A 1/3 caster is also very possible. The class could use a Ki point variant, but there's an upper limit to how may different mechanics you really want on class to have. You could incorporate it straight into the shrouds mechanic too - gate the spells by level and cost them in shroud points.

I'd see the Shrouds be fueled by spell slots ala Divine Smite.

Like, you can spend a 1st level slot to add a Shroud to 2d12 (+1d12 per extra level) psychic damage as a Bonus Action. You dont need to ''reclaim'' the shroud on the same turn. So you can spend many turn to build up your Shrouds to do a big a** nova.

Por que no los dos?

So, the Shrouds have a dice association already, are already a bit Smite-like, and we had already discussed the riposte ability costing a Shroud.

Why not make the core mechanic a pool of dice, rather than points, called Shrouds? This way the coated stuff is part of 1 mechanic, much like the monk, and you can do more with Shrouds, AND have a fully capable combatant in general, but unlike the monk you are blowing a lot of “ki” in bursts most of the time, rather than using them 1-2 per round pretty evenly.

If the class leans more heavily on the dice for its power, it could have a secondary way of regain (or of not spending) dice, but that would be decided once we have a basic structure.

in very loose terms, imagine a monk variant where you could spend ki to smite instead of fueling other abilities.

 

[Fenris-77]

Yeah, so less shroud points than Ki points but bigger effects generally? That sounds cool. It also sounds like resource management with consequences, which I like too - maybe along the lines of number BM dice per SR? 4 per short rest (to start at whatever level) means 12 per day, which translates to roughly 2 per encounter. Sounds right to me.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Yeah, so less shroud points than Ki points but bigger effects generally? That sounds cool. It also sounds like resource management with consequences, which I like too - maybe along the lines of number BM dice per SR? 4 per short rest (to start at whatever level) means 12 per day, which translates to roughly 2 per encounter. Sounds right to me.

I was actually thinking more dice, since the assassin leans on them even more than the monk leans on ki, but I’m not 100% on that. one thing to keep in mind is that a single ki is worth 1 MA die plus Dex plus any feat/item/spell buffs. 1 Shroud is worth 1d10 damage.

 

[Fenris-77]

Part of that equation is deciding which of the discussed abilities actually fall under the shroud rubric. For example, we may not want the dodge/riposte thing to be dependent on shroud, at which point we can just split it off to be its own mechanic. We should base the number of dice available off of how many times per encounter in a normal day we think the class should have dice to spend. The shroud being worth a d10 is why I brought up the BM, who's dice are a d8 plus rider, so close, value-wise, although that whole system takes up less design space in the fighter class than I think the shrouds will in this class, so we can lean into them a little more.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Part of that equation is deciding which of the discussed abilities actually fall under the shroud rubric. For example, we may not want the dodge/riposte thing to be dependent on shroud, at which point we can just split it off to be its own mechanic. We should base the number of dice available off of how many times per encounter in a normal day we think the class should have dice to spend. The shroud being worth a d10 is why I brought up the BM, who's dice are a d8 plus rider, so close, value-wise, although that whole system takes up less design space in the fighter class than I think the shrouds will in this class, so we can lean into them a little more.

That’s great points. Bad sentence. I’m tired.

I wonder if we can accurately extrapolate a “half caster” equivalent of superiority dice with the assumption that the BM is a “1/3 caster”? Like, would the resulting number make sense?

The dodge depends on whether we want the free part to be “try to parry an attack” or “when an attack misses you, attack the attacker”.

If the1st, we want a rider counter-Attack with a resource cost (or at least a x/rest limit). If the 2nd, we want a “dodge as a bonus action” feature with a cost or /rest limit.

does that makes sense?

 

[Fenris-77]

Sure we can do that. The Paladin template gives us the conversion of a level 1 spell slot to 2d8 damage, which is roughly equivalent to d10 plus rider. If we use the utility of cantrips to round up get the following, roughly: starting at 4 dice and going up a die every level. It's not exactly the same as the EK spell progression, but it's close, mind you that's not a SR resource, it's a LR resource. Those could be converted back to spells to if we wanted. Also, that progression starts at third. We could start the shroud lower at 1st, match up with 4 at third and also be able to add other options for spending the points based on subclass abilities.

It would be more precise to keep the dice at d8s (doubling the number of available dice, roughly), and call it spend a die to add a rider, or more damage, rather than always combining them. That would fine tune player control of the resource a little because it's more granular.

I'd start with the dodge and then move up to the riposte, or combine them. For example, if it were a shroud ability, as a reaction when hit spend a shroud point and get +5 AC for the remainder of the round, if that would make the attack miss, you may take a free melee attack at your attacker. Obviously based on Shield, but it could work.

Edit - oops, I did all that math based on 1/3 caster. That might be enough dice though. Lemme know, and I can fine tune the numbers either way.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Sure we can do that. The Paladin template gives us the conversion of a level 1 spell slot to 2d8 damage, which is roughly equivalent to d10 plus rider. If we use the utility of cantrips to round up get the following, roughly: starting at 4 dice and going up a die every level. It's not exactly the same as the EK spell progression, but it's close, mind you that's not a SR resource, it's a LR resource. Those could be converted back to spells to if we wanted. Also, that progression starts at third. We could start the shroud lower at 1st, match up with 4 at third and also be able to add other options for spending the points based on subclass abilities.

It would be more precise to keep the dice at d8s (doubling the number of available dice, roughly), and call it spend a die to add a rider, or more damage, rather than always combining them. That would fine tune player control of the resource a little because it's more granular.

I'd start with the dodge and then move up to the riposte, or combine them. For example, if it were a shroud ability, as a reaction when hit spend a shroud point and get +5 AC for the remainder of the round, if that would make the attack miss, you may take a free melee attack at your attacker. Obviously based on Shield, but it could work.

Edit - oops, I did all that math based on 1/3 caster. That might be enough dice though. Lemme know, and I can fine tune the numbers either way.

I think if it’s the primary damage mechanic, and fuels special abilities, I think it should be based on 1/2 caster.

wild idea: what if we don’t use Extra Attack, and instead get Dodge as a Bonus Action and Reaction Attacks when someone misses you, and reaction move and attack when you drop a creature? Too fiddly?

 

[Fenris-77]

No, it's got potential. It doesn't synergize with bleeds though. Maybe move and attack on a critical starting at 5th level?

 

[Fenris-77]

I like the general idea more than a second attack. Helps separate the class a little and it emphasizes the move and strike thing.