D&D (2024) Bard Playtest discussion

[Staffan]

As far as I remember the party could only trigger 2 or 3 healing surges per combat with the option of one surge equivalent that used caster only resources.

Pretty close. The baseline for a leader was Healing Word and Inspiring Word which were 2/encounter, or 3/encounter at level 16+, triggering a healing surge with 1d6 to 6d6 bonus healing. These abilities were minor actions (bonus actions in 5e parlance), so you could also do something "productive". In addition, each PC could use Second Wind as a standard action* 1/encounter to spend a healing surge. You could also have other abilities triggering healing surges, both from leaders and others. For example, clerics could choose the Healing Strike encounter power which would deal 2W+Str damage, mark the target, and allow you or a nearby ally to spend a healing surge.

And of course, during a short rest you could spend as many healing surges as you wanted.

It was the combination of limited heals per combat with a good healing return but that healing opportunity refreshed on the next combat.

That, and having healing surges be the main attrition mechanic, not actual hp.

* 4e levels went to 30, not 20.
** One of the dwarven racial abilities was to use Second Wind as a minor action instead of a standard action.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If WotC increases the healing though, not the DM, that's a different story.

Sure, but that's going to become a roll of the dice. Some people will just follow WoTC's guidelines. Others will figure out the math. And some will overdo it. Same as we have now.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm sorry you're stressed man.

Just work stuff

Metagame magic is a bunch of hokum. The PC has no way of knowing this stuff and the magic isn't going to bypass the PC and give the information to the player.

Why not? Magic can see the future. Magic can read signatures invisible to the eye. Magic can look inside a creature and see the microbes that cause disease. Why can't magic give information that aggregates into the information of AC?

Heck, magic can increase and create AC. How can a caster possibly even comprehend the spell "Mage Armor" since it gives the protection of AC 13 + Dex mod. That is a part of the spell that the caster can read and comprehend, however it is presented in world, they understand it. Same with Barkskin, which gives you an AC of 16, and that AC cannot be lowered. Scrolls of Barkskin exist and can be understood, so how is that spell capable of presenting the concept of AC to a caster, but magic cannot possibly present information that can aggregate into AC for the caster? That is contradictory.

 

[Charlaquin]

If you're not going to use the actual components (which I enjoy doing for wizards and clerics at least because its flavourful) why bother with the pouch? Just dump the idea entirely.

Because they attach to your belt, whereas Arcane Foci occupy a hand even when you’re not actively casting a spell.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Because they attach to your belt, whereas Arcane Foci occupy a hand even when you’re not actively casting a spell.

I'm not a big fan of arcane foci either. Again, traditional components are a lot more flavorful, at least for wizards.

 

[Maxperson]

Just work stuff

I sincerely hope it gets better for you soon. We may disagree a lot here, but on a personal level I wish the best for everyone. Perhaps the weekend will provide the rest and freedom of mind that you need.

Why not? Magic can see the future. Magic can read signatures invisible to the eye. Magic can look inside a creature and see the microbes that cause disease. Why can't magic give information that aggregates into the information of AC?

Magic can tell the caster, "The creature has protection roughly equal to chain mail and it is agile as well," but it's not going to give the caster AC 18(16 from hide, 2 from dex bonus). The caster doesn't even know that chain mail is 16 and hide is 12. He only knows that chain protects significantly better than hide.

Heck, magic can increase and create AC. How can a caster possibly even comprehend the spell "Mage Armor" since it gives the protection of AC 13 + Dex mod. That is a part of the spell that the caster can read and comprehend, however it is presented in world, they understand it. Same with Barkskin, which gives you an AC of 16, and that AC cannot be lowered.

No, the caster does not read or comprehend 13+dex. He reads and understands that mage armor affords some protection and he can still move in it easily, so it's a good spell to have. The hard numbers are metagame.

 

[Yaarel]

I would love each kind of spellcasting focus to grant a different spellcasting benefit. I would need these benefits to robustly balance with each other and be equally good choices.

Delete spellcasting "components" from the game. Instead, only the focus matters. Decide which focus the character concept is using.

Examples of focuses:
• Mind (trance, mystical experience, visualization, etcetera)
• Voice (improvising expressions of intention, chant, song, poem, command, reciting formula, etcetera)
• Body (dance, Airbender, nose wiggle, hand signs, magic-infused body, drop of blood, etcetera)
• Symbol (personal, traditional, sacred, necklace, tattoo, shield, etcetera)
• Text (personal, traditional, sacred text, diary, book of poetry, written oracles, spellbook, etcetera)
• Implement (wand, staff, rod, cane, distaff, orb, sword, musical instrument, etcetera)
• Components (protoscientific properties of various objects, animal/plant parts, tarot deck, etcetera)
• Pet (familiar)

 

[Micah Sweet]

I would love each kind of spellcasting focus to grant a different spellcasting benefit. I would need these benefits to robustly balance with each other and be equally good choices.

Delete spellcasting "components" from the game. Instead, only the focus matters. Decide which focus the character concept is using.

Examples of focuses:
• Mind (trance, mystical experience, visualization, etcetera)
• Voice (improvising expressions of intention, chant, song, poem, command, reciting formula, etcetera)
• Body (dance, Airbender, nose wiggle, hand signs, magic-infused body, drop of blood, etcetera)
• Symbol (personal, traditional, sacred, necklace, tattoo, shield, etcetera)
• Text (personal, traditional, sacred text, diary, book of poetry, written oracles, spellbook, etcetera)
• Implement (wand, staff, rod, cane, distaff, orb, sword, musical instrument, etcetera)
• Components (protoscientific properties of various objects, animal/plant parts, tarot deck, etcetera)
• Pet (familiar)

There you go! Make them do something, and perhaps lean more into different spellcasters using different ones, and arcane foci could be really cool as opposed to just an excuse not to interact with the component rules.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I sincerely hope it gets better for you soon. We may disagree a lot here, but on a personal level I wish the best for everyone. Perhaps the weekend will provide the rest and freedom of mind that you need.

Doubt it will, but who knows.

Magic can tell the caster, "The creature has protection roughly equal to chain mail and it is agile as well," but it's not going to give the caster AC 18(16 from hide, 2 from dex bonus). The caster doesn't even know that chain mail is 16 and hide is 12. He only knows that chain protects significantly better than hide.

No, the caster does not read or comprehend 13+dex. He reads and understands that mage armor affords some protection and he can still move in it easily, so it's a good spell to have. The hard numbers are metagame.

If a Druid has Hide Armor, a Dex of 14, and a shield, then they know that Barkskin cannot offer them any additional protection. They have to know this, because it is true, and no druid in that situation will cast Barkskin. They may not think of it in terms of "I have an AC of 16, therefore the spell setting my AC to 16 is not helpful" but they still come to the same conclusion and have the same understanding.

Mages who can cast Mage Armor and wear normal armor are aware of how Mage Armor stacks up against their various choices. They would know for example that Mage Armor is superior to wearing a chain shirt, but inferior to them wearing plate armor (if their Dex score is less than 20)

However this is possible, it is possible, because these decisions are made. The caster has to be able to tell when a spell is and is not useful, otherwise every time that a Druid doesn't cast Barkskin because it won't change their AC, or a Hexblade uses Mage Armor because they have an 18 dexm instead of purchasing half-plate, they would be meta-gaming.

 

[SkidAce]

I would love each kind of spellcasting focus to grant a different spellcasting benefit. I would need these benefits to robustly balance with each other and be equally good choices.

Delete spellcasting "components" from the game. Instead, only the focus matters. Decide which focus the character concept is using.

Examples of focuses:
• Mind (trance, mystical experience, visualization, etcetera)
• Voice (improvising expressions of intention, chant, song, poem, command, reciting formula, etcetera)
• Body (dance, Airbender, nose wiggle, hand signs, magic-infused body, drop of blood, etcetera)
• Symbol (personal, traditional, sacred, necklace, tattoo, shield, etcetera)
• Text (personal, traditional, sacred text, diary, book of poetry, written oracles, spellbook, etcetera)
• Implement (wand, staff, rod, cane, distaff, orb, sword, musical instrument, etcetera)
• Components (protoscientific properties of various objects, animal/plant parts, tarot deck, etcetera)
• Pet (familiar)

I lean towards "sympathetic" magic, so material components always made sense to me.

Feel like it would depend on the style of the campaign.