D&D 5E Bards Should Be Half-Casters in 5.5e/6e

The 4e and 5e Bard areJacks of all trades. The 3.5 Bard worked about as well as any of the not “broken good” elements of 3.5 worked.
I think the 3.5 bard was a bit less miserable than the 3.0 one, but overall it was still not getting the ADnD 2nd edition bard feeling. Especially with the complete bard's handbook.
It went feom jack of all trades to just a singer.
So
ADnD 2e: jack of all trades with reasonable power
4e: jack of all trades with reasonable power
5e: jack of all trade with reasonable power. Leaning slightly more towards caster.

If I did 6e I would scale spellcasting slightly back, but not by reducing the progression. Maybe by giving less known spells and instead some abilities that are powered by spell slots. And then getting fixed spells from subclasses.
 

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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I think the 3.5 bard was a bit less miserable than the 3.0 one, but overall it was still not getting the ADnD 2nd edition bard feeling. Especially with the complete bard's handbook.
It went feom jack of all trades to just a singer.
I disagree. The 3.5 was one of the few classes in the phb that worked but wasn’t broken, and had a broad enough set of skills that it could do a lot of different things. And it could throw up the inspire courage and then it just stayed around, leaving them free to be a healer, fighter, controller, etc.
So
ADnD 2e: jack of all trades with reasonable power
4e: jack of all trades with reasonable power
5e: jack of all trade with reasonable power. Leaning slightly more towards caster.

If I did 6e I would scale spellcasting slightly back, but not by reducing the progression. Maybe by giving less known spells and instead some abilities that are powered by spell slots. And then getting fixed spells from subclasses.
Something like that could work for sure. For me, I’d just build a new Bard from the ground up, based more on Irish fianna and fili, and others whose words are power, who keep stories, etc.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
You keep bringing up how many cultural issues you have with D&D. I would very much love to see Yaarel's PH. How would you solve all the issues you think D&D should fix?

By the way, there is stuff in the 5e Players Handbook that I love! The 5e spontaneous spellcasting system for the Wizard is the best ever of any edition. The mythologically accurate Celtic-esque 5e Bard as a fullcaster is fun and versatile for the concepts of other cultures as well. And the 5e Paladin is the funnest ever.



We are now towards 10 years of D&D 5e!

The main cultural issues that I had when the Players Handbook came out have already found solutions.

Xanathars came out with the "cosmic force" Cleric. This 5e formulation seems even better than earlier editions of a "philosophical" or "faith empowered" Cleric, because the concept of a cosmic force encourages Cleric character concepts that feel more plausibly a "sacred" way of life. This allows reallife players to come up with a Cleric character concept that they feel comfortable and enthusiastic about.

Tashas came out with floating ability scores. This allows the creation of character concepts that better match the players own cultural perspectives, including my own.

It is important to me, that these two rules become part of the core rules of the Players Handbook (and 5e SRD). For example, the Cleric class description merits a rewrite to be about a "cosmic force". Different settings will have different cosmic forces that define its worldviews. In Dark Sun, the cosmic forces are the four elements, and the life of planet Athas as a fifth element. In Forgotten Realms, the cosmic forces are gods, each with its own portfolio of cosmic forces. Generally, each Cleric Domain is a legitimate sacred force. Recentering the flavor of the Cleric class to be about a cosmic force makes the Players Handbook more useful to more settings, without the feeling that Forgotten Realms (or WotC corporate intellectual property) is strong-arming player choices. The results of a cosmic force as the concept is better for the game, because it makes one think more carefully about in-world within the setting. One thinks about why the force is sacred, and what a sacred community would look like that holds that force to be sacred. The focus is on the people of the community and their sacred customs and the places of their institutions. Best yet, a "sacred force" can accommodate the sensibilities of many reallife ethnicities, so there is more room within the game for many reallife players to be comfortable and enthusiastic about playing D&D.

The Players Handbook mentions races that are significant to the Norse cultural heritage, elves and dwarves. The design direction since Tashas empowers whatever abilities are important to an individual character concept. In this case, elves that are high Charisma, Intelligence, and Wisdom (and not Dexterity) are central to Norse cultural heritage, and the Bard (voice-only, without musical instrument, plus maybe a voice-only Paladin-style oath-as-cosmic-force Cleric) is excellent for a Norse elf. The Dwarves that are high Intelligence, Wisdom, and Strength are appropriate, and the Druid and Wizard are reasonable for a Norse dwarf. (The Norse dwarf is human-height, but the mechanics are Medium, and the precise height is easy to handwaive.) The floating ability scores of Tashas allows the player to decide what abilities are more appropriate − and often more importantly for sensitive situations what abilities are inappropriate. As a DM, I am taking full advantage of the official floating ability scores for worldbuilding my settings. I feel the race design works better if all races are more like the Tashas Custom Lineage, giving the player a choice of a race feat and a race trait (half of a feat). But even now, the floating abilities is plenty of flexibility.

What Xanathars and Tashas brings to the game resolves my two main issues.



The only issue remaining is a base class Psion! I was disappointed when 5e came out without a Psion in the Players Handbook. But in hindsight, perhaps that is beneficial. I can see the designers trying hard to come up with a Psion class that satisfies psionic fans. But it is the psionic fans themselves who are divided about what a Psion should look like. Hopefully, this time-consuming process of UAs and feedback will eventually result in a Psion that most psionic fans either love or can live with. Happily, psionic content has been trickling out since the 5e Monster Manual defined psionic as a specific kind of innate spellcasting, which feels accurate to me. I am calling the psionic power source a "cultural issue" in the sense that it is the theory of magic that is closest to the Norse cultural heritage and is the one that feels the most "correct" to my cultural sensibilities. In D&D terms, the Norse figures like æsir and jǫtnar are sorta like psionic archfey, but more elemental, being aspects of the sky (airy wind, watery clouds, fiery sun, etcetera) and land (earthy cliffs, watery glaciers, etcetera). For other cultures (especially under Hellenistic influence), employing "material components" and "gods" for magical rituals is a thing. But it isnt my thing. Psionic as innate spellcasting is the part of the game that feels the most "right" to me. I see the 5e designers are trying hard to make psionics work!



So, empowering players to build more ethnically and spiritually diverse Cleric concepts, and more ethnically diverse race concepts, plus the psionic source: that is pretty much it for the main issues that I have with the original Players Handbook.

Especially with the contributions of Xanathars and Tashas, I am happy with the D&D 5e tradition.
 
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I disagree. The 3.5 was one of the few classes in the phb that worked but wasn’t broken, and had a broad enough set of skills that it could do a lot of different things. And it could throw up the inspire courage and then it just stayed around, leaving them free to be a healer, fighter, controller, etc.
I do agree that it worked and was not overpowered... but it lost what was fun for me and one of the few classes that were nerfed heavily.

So comparably it sucked, because it was overshadowed by others. 3.5 improved things a lot, but in 3.0 it was a disaster.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I do agree that it worked and was not overpowered... but it lost what was fun for me and one of the few classes that were nerfed heavily.

So comparably it sucked, because it was overshadowed by others. 3.5 improved things a lot, but in 3.0 it was a disaster.
Yeah I never played 3.0, and my memories of 2 are pretty hazy at this point, so fair enough.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
In 5e they are not real full casters in my opinion actually. Full casters (sorc, wiz, some druids, some cleric) all gain abilities to either get more spells over the course of the day (spell points, arcane recovery, natural recovery) or have a very powerful spell like feature (channel divinity).

I view a "fullcaster" as reaching slot 9 spells. Both the Bard and the Wizard are fullcasters.

The design space where the Wizard recovers spell slots and so on, is sorta like the design space where the Bard gets Inspiration effects. In both cases, it is extra magic.
 

I view a "fullcaster" as reaching slot 9 spells. Both the Bard and the Wizard are fullcasters.

The design space where the Wizard recovers spell slots and so on, is sorta like the design space where the Bard gets Inspiration effects. In both cases, it is extra magic.
That is ok. It is just that for me it is a big difference.

Ediit: it is because the bard uses that extra magic to support others. It is also the kind of magic, the bard has access to. Only magical secrets allows them to steal very powerful spells.
Probably magical secrets should be scaled down a bit. While I think, the level 6 extra magical secrets of the lore bard (the only one I consider full caster) allowing to gain a level 3 spell is ok, the normal magical secrets are a bit too much. Being limited to 2 level 4 spells at 10th level, two level 5 spells at 14th level and 2 level 6 spells at level 18 may be more in line with the expectations of a dabbler in magic and scales the bard's power quite a bit down while not really limiting the versatility.
 
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Laurefindel

Legend
I view a "fullcaster" as reaching slot 9 spells. Both the Bard and the Wizard are fullcasters.

The design space where the Wizard recovers spell slots and so on, is sorta like the design space where the Bard gets Inspiration effects. In both cases, it is extra magic.
That’s exactly what they are;

Full-caster (e.g. wizard, bard) one level in this class = 1 spellcaster level. A 12th level full-caster casts like a 12th level spellcaster. That’s the base reference.

half-caster (e.g. ranger, paladin) one level in this class = 1/2 full spellcaster level. A 12th level-half caster casts like a 6th level spellcaster.

third-caster (e.g. arcane trickster, eldritch knight): one level in this class = 1/3 full spellcaster level. A 12th level third-caster casts like a 4th level spellcaster.

this works for multiclassing, but fractions are dropped
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
I 100% agree and have said in many-a-thread that Bard's should have been made 1/2 casters. I'd go further to say they should have been sent back to their myth/legend/historic roots and been made primarily natural/druidic style spells.

Now, I do not have a system for my setting that uses all of these same classes (at least not in the same ways) and I differentiate my types/sources of magic differently than D&D insists on sticking with. Assuming a D&D Divine/Arcane magic split is more a matter of narrative fluff and types of spells than something really concrete. It seems to me the organization that would have made the most sense, and was really fairly obvious, for 5e should have been:

Granted Magic
Wisdom-based Full Caster: Cleric - all spell levels, channeling abilities, domain powers
Wisdom-based Half-Caster: Warlock - half spell levels, pact abilities, extra powers from patron
Wisdom-based Third-caster: Paladin - third spell progression, smite, uses magical connection to invoke auras

Innate Magic
Charisma-based Full Caster: Sorcerer - all spell levels, metamagic abilities, element/origin powers
Charisma-based Half-Caster: Bard - half spell levels, inspiration abilities, extra powers from the cosmic music
Charisma-based Third-Caster: Ranger - third spell progression, hunter's quarry (nature smite), uses magical connection and/or training to enact rituals (natural/druidic, divine, or arcane spell effects)

Learned Magic
Intelligence-based Full Caster: Wizard -all spell levels, arcane/occult abilities, school powers
Intelligence-based Half-Caster: Druid -half spell levels, nature abilities, extra powers from circle
Intelligence-based Third-Caster: Swordmage (Eldritch Knight)- third spell progression, spell strike (arcane smite), uses magical training to evoke individual-buffs/transmutations (speed, strength, dim-door, improve AC, etc...)

...yeah. That should work.
 

Maybe the bard archetype is too vague for it to be effectively translated into a class. One could imagine a celtic loremaster type focused on ritual (out of combat) magic (perhaps as a druid subclass?). Or a swashbuckler, but then we already have the rogue. Or a medieval minstrel...but it seems like that should be more of a sidekick than a hero.
 

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