Ruin Explorer
Legend
That's a great example of the exact same kind of purely videogame-style balancing WotC are doing here.
D&D (2024) Bastion rules: every pub owner is at least 13th level
bedir than
Full Moon Storyteller
Considering that the feedback on wild shape was such that they're taking a third swing at it, you are likely mistaken.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
He's not mistaken. He's commenting on an actual action that already happened in the past.
He's right to say that in the context of that sort of balancing, we should not be surprised.
Its not even video gamey; its just absurd and incoherent.
Reread what I said.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
I would say it is videogame-y, because this particular kind of absurdity is common in MMORPGs and to a lesser extent in RPGs generally. Where level limits are stuck on things not because it makes the slightest bit of in-setting sense, but because it's there solely to balance some mechanic.
For example, see The Witcher 3, where Geralt can easily get weapons he can't wield because he is too low-level, or clothes he can't put on. It's entirely antithetical to the fiction of the setting, and purely an absurd game mechanic.
This is something D&D, and games like Elden Ring, which have a sort of D&D vibe, actually have almost always avoided. You don't need to say, level 15 to wield a vorpal sword in D&D - but it's unlikely the DM would give one to PCs below that level. Should they get it though, they will be able to use it. Likewise Elden Ring - there are weapons it's nearly impossible to get at lower levels, but if you do get them, and you have the stats to use them properly (i.e. strong enough etc.), you can use them.
Well video games can be absurd and incoherent too. Its not a specfic hallmark of being a video game. Even MMOs aren't necessarily guilty of it. Runescape for example is skill based, so weapons and armor being unwieldable without the prerequisites is, internal to the game's logic, consistent and intuitive.
This is all rooted in the basic problem of how to handle and portray progression. A game like the Witcher, to my understanding, is incoherent in its answer because Geralt shouldn't really be progressing based on levels. Most hero RPGs (ie, RPGs where you're a fixed character) don't use that method, and where they do progression is tied up in effectiveness and abilities, not the basic ability to wear or wield a particular item.
Without having played that game, it seems to me they had a problem with adapting to Open World design (ie, too easy to get OP weapons for the early game) and so Levels are added after the fact as a fix. And that tracks given what else Ive seen and heard about how the game handles its OW design.
A better process would have been to first stick to a specific progression model and build it up from the start, integrating it properly with world design. Whether thats level gating or not is immaterial.
Likewise with Bastions, this is a system being created in isolation with logic that can only be internal to itself, rather than the game. Hence, the level 13 Pub that doesn't do anything.
It doesn't track to any other progression track in the game because it isn't really a part of the game.
And the Druid example is an example of weird progression being enforced as a fix rather than because that was the desired progression model.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
That is in fact exactly what happened so good guess!
When Witcher 3 initially launched, it was a little more consistent with its fiction in that, whilst items had levels (booo), if Geralt could get them, Geralt could use them.
But within a few weeks of launch they'd patched it so that all items had minimum levels, specifically because certain weapons/clothes you could get really early on and were really powerful. They later changed it again in other ways but that's a whole other discussion.
Henadic Theologian
Legend
Part of the problem is Bastions don't properly interact with other systems. How does that system interact with say permenant magic spells like Major Illusion, Mighty Fortress, Temple of the Gods, Planar Ally, etc...
Plus it needs rules for mobile Bastions like Spelljammers, Walking Castles, Airships, Water Ships, etc..., as well players who want to use the Bastion rules with existing structures like Trollskull Ally in Waterdeep: Dragonheist, Spelljammer's, Ships, etc...
Honestly a simpler and more flexible system would be places you choose to be your Bastion, like say Trolskull, get their own attunement slots, that you can use to give rooms and other parts of your Bastion magically upgrades. What the tap room of Trolskull to over magical drinks, attune magical Keg to the room, or attune a magical enchantment like Hollow to a rune, making it permenant and undispelable. Like player characters a Bastion can only attune so many items/permanent enchsntnents, although for gold you can build upgrades to the Bastion that allows you to get an extra attunement slot for the Bastion.
Also the option to just pay for permancy magic on your Mighty Fortress, Temple of the Gods, Magifiscent Mansion so you don't have to keep recasting over like year.
For stuff like Major Illusion with a 5th level slot, you can just have as many permenant Illusions as you want.
Also the option to hire Hirelings not tied to a room, like servants (maids, butlers, personal chef, landscaper, etc... ), Apprentices in your class, etc...
Plus it needs rules for mobile Bastions like Spelljammers, Walking Castles, Airships, Water Ships, etc..., as well players who want to use the Bastion rules with existing structures like Trollskull Ally in Waterdeep: Dragonheist, Spelljammer's, Ships, etc...
Honestly a simpler and more flexible system would be places you choose to be your Bastion, like say Trolskull, get their own attunement slots, that you can use to give rooms and other parts of your Bastion magically upgrades. What the tap room of Trolskull to over magical drinks, attune magical Keg to the room, or attune a magical enchantment like Hollow to a rune, making it permenant and undispelable. Like player characters a Bastion can only attune so many items/permanent enchsntnents, although for gold you can build upgrades to the Bastion that allows you to get an extra attunement slot for the Bastion.
Also the option to just pay for permancy magic on your Mighty Fortress, Temple of the Gods, Magifiscent Mansion so you don't have to keep recasting over like year.
For stuff like Major Illusion with a 5th level slot, you can just have as many permenant Illusions as you want.
Also the option to hire Hirelings not tied to a room, like servants (maids, butlers, personal chef, landscaper, etc... ), Apprentices in your class, etc...
Yeah I heard from a GDC talk that they tried to fix a problem with people farming cows for infinite money, and kept failing.
Never apparently occurred to them to make cowhide worthless, or as the talk proposed, progressively worthless as more is generated.
Kinematics
Hero
OK. It's recommended you get 6 to 8 Bastion turns per level. At minimum, those are getting a Maintain Order command, which gives 1d4 BP per special facility. Level 5 special facilities (what you'll be starting with) also give 1d4 BP per order given, though some orders take more than 7 days (the typical duration of a bastion turn).
So if you do nothing but Maintain Order with your brand new level 5 Bastion, you get about 5 BP per week for 6 to 8 weeks, giving a total of 30 to 40 BP when you reach 6th level. That could get you maybe a couple common magic items, but not enough for an uncommon one.
By level 7 you could maybe have enough to get an uncommon magic item.
Getting a rare magic item requires 250 BP and a minimum level of 9. By level 9, you may have accumulated around 140 BP, which still isn't enough for the magic item. However you get two more special facilities, and the level 9 facilities give 1d6 BP per order. That means you're likely to average 12 BP per bastion turn, and could maybe hit that 250 BP threshold by the middle of level 10.
So baseline, things don't look great for trying to get a magic item out of a Bastion. However we can improve things by spending 25 GP per order given. That gives you "advantage" on the BP roll. That increases your average BP roll from 2.5 to 3.13 for the level 5 facilities, and from 3.5 to 4.47 for the level 9 facilities. For the die sizes in question, it's an increase of about 25%-30%.
7 weeks of two orders per week would cost 350 GP per level. Your average BP accumulated per level would increase from 35 to 44. In 4 levels you should have accumulated 175 BP. At level 9 with the two new facilities, you should average 15.2 BP per week, or 106 BP over the level (at a cost of 700 GP). That gives you a grand total of 280 BP by the time you reach level 10. Total gold cost is 2100 GP.
2100 GP is a midrange cost for a rare magic item (which the DMG prices between 501 and 5000 GP).
Overall, by level 10 you could have 4 uncommon magic items, or 1 rare magic item, as long as you don't spend your BP on anything else. Getting an uncommon magic item would require 2 levels of work between levels 5 and 9, or 1 level of work after level 9.
Of course you're getting the other benefits of the facilities along the way, so it's not all just waiting and waiting. But the bastion turn mechanic does feel like it could run afoul of some normal game time limits.
In my most recent game, it's taken almost a year of play time to reach level 5. So, roughly 12 weeks of one game session per week per level. On the other hand, the amount of in-game time that has passed is maybe 2 months. Even if we continue to level up at the same real-world rate, we could conceivably be getting just a couple bastion turns per level.
The facility benefits themselves may be worthwhile, but the BP benefits will be anemic, particularly against the amount of real-world time that has passed. At the current rate, I might be able to get a single uncommon magic item by level 10, which is hardly even worth tracking.
So yeah, the BP aspect of this is going to be heavily dependent on a game running with lots of downtime.
So if you do nothing but Maintain Order with your brand new level 5 Bastion, you get about 5 BP per week for 6 to 8 weeks, giving a total of 30 to 40 BP when you reach 6th level. That could get you maybe a couple common magic items, but not enough for an uncommon one.
By level 7 you could maybe have enough to get an uncommon magic item.
Getting a rare magic item requires 250 BP and a minimum level of 9. By level 9, you may have accumulated around 140 BP, which still isn't enough for the magic item. However you get two more special facilities, and the level 9 facilities give 1d6 BP per order. That means you're likely to average 12 BP per bastion turn, and could maybe hit that 250 BP threshold by the middle of level 10.
So baseline, things don't look great for trying to get a magic item out of a Bastion. However we can improve things by spending 25 GP per order given. That gives you "advantage" on the BP roll. That increases your average BP roll from 2.5 to 3.13 for the level 5 facilities, and from 3.5 to 4.47 for the level 9 facilities. For the die sizes in question, it's an increase of about 25%-30%.
7 weeks of two orders per week would cost 350 GP per level. Your average BP accumulated per level would increase from 35 to 44. In 4 levels you should have accumulated 175 BP. At level 9 with the two new facilities, you should average 15.2 BP per week, or 106 BP over the level (at a cost of 700 GP). That gives you a grand total of 280 BP by the time you reach level 10. Total gold cost is 2100 GP.
2100 GP is a midrange cost for a rare magic item (which the DMG prices between 501 and 5000 GP).
Overall, by level 10 you could have 4 uncommon magic items, or 1 rare magic item, as long as you don't spend your BP on anything else. Getting an uncommon magic item would require 2 levels of work between levels 5 and 9, or 1 level of work after level 9.
Of course you're getting the other benefits of the facilities along the way, so it's not all just waiting and waiting. But the bastion turn mechanic does feel like it could run afoul of some normal game time limits.
In my most recent game, it's taken almost a year of play time to reach level 5. So, roughly 12 weeks of one game session per week per level. On the other hand, the amount of in-game time that has passed is maybe 2 months. Even if we continue to level up at the same real-world rate, we could conceivably be getting just a couple bastion turns per level.
The facility benefits themselves may be worthwhile, but the BP benefits will be anemic, particularly against the amount of real-world time that has passed. At the current rate, I might be able to get a single uncommon magic item by level 10, which is hardly even worth tracking.
So yeah, the BP aspect of this is going to be heavily dependent on a game running with lots of downtime.
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