BattleStar Galactica:Season 3.0--11/10/06--Arc 6

IcyCool said:
So, how's the fishin'? Anyone bite yet?

You did :).

DonTadow said:
sorry accidental quote

No problem.

Arnwyn said:
Hera has been portrayed as a freak incident - something extremely special and unique. In fact, those 'farms' that the Cylons had set up showed specifically that they were desperate to try to somehow manufacture some sort of procreation function, and so far look to have failed miserably (again, only with Athena being the successful result - and likely nothing more than an accident that the Cyclons clearly can't replicate).

They probably could replicate it. I mean, if all you need is love then all they have to do is figure out the right amount and type of chemicals that are produced when people are in "love." And then they could have giant Cylon Orgies between the seven known models.

Oh dear. Jerry Springer is gonna work overtime.
 

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Arnwyn said:
What's all this nonsensical talk about "cylons procreating/breeding" with humans? There's no evidence of that - in fact, all the evidence points out that the Cylons can't breed, and can only manufacture themselves.

Hera exists.
 


Falkus said:
Allow me to rephrase my statement:

If we had to face a choice between the survival of the species and committing genocide, the only right choice to make would be to not commit genocide. Genocide is the single most heinous crime possible.

The problem is the "no choice" thing. The only reason the BSG humans would have no choice is that the cylons stubbornly have chosen that they will commit genocide no matter what. The "no choice" is not a fact of nature, it is a decision by one of the competing parties. By this rephrase, it is nonetheless still a situation where if the cylons are dead set on wiping out humanity such that the only way to stop them is to kill them all, or at least destroy them as a people group/unit (and the rephrase still concedes this), humanity would have to let the cylons commit genocide, even though they are the aggressor. Thus, if the aggressors are stubbornly violent enough, by your argument, the victims cannot defend themselves.
 

Fast Learner said:
Their "moral ground" is their existence as sentient beings. Their actions don't obviate their right to exist.

Umm, yeah, they pretty much do. Being "sentient" isn't enough to claim a moral right to exist. Being sentient and then arranging the unprovoked murder of tens of billions of humans pretty much eliminates your moral right to exist.

Absolutely. And I would work very hard on learning to live in peace with you.

So, as a cylon, I'll be stopping by to eradicate your family then. Oh, and since I'm being a cylon, I'll hunt you for a while with the intent to kill you too. You just have to "learn to live in peace with me".

Right.

I find your moral compass to be severely flawed in this regard.
 

Lets remember that the humans gave up. Battlestar Galatica has been running from them for hte last three years and still the cylons chase them to eradicate them. ... relentlessly. They won't stop until the human race is killed.

I guess the question is what extend will you go to to protect your family.
 

Fast Learner said:
From what I've seen, the Cylons are not irredeemably evil, they are simply incredibly immature and confused. You can see their adolescent idiocy work itself out again and again. If I'd judged my daughter's fitness to survive based on some of the crap she pulled in early high school, she'd have been voted off the island ages ago, but today she's an amazing human being who helps the needy and is incredibly loving.

This is a good point you make. They may not be irredeemably evil. It might be that they're simply incredibly immature and confused. Point taken. But it would be foolish to let them have their "growing pains" and give them leave to "figure things out", when that process will result in the extermination of your own species. That's where I have the problem.

Yeah, it would be great if they could live in peace. But I remember reading a line once that said basically something along the lines of "sure, it's not his fault that he's bad. But do you let a rabid dog bite other people and infect them, or do you kill the rabid dog before it has spread the sickness on to others"? Something along those lines. Unfortunately the train of experimentation and learning the Cylons are pursuing will have disastrous effects on everyone who is not a Cylon. The humans are no longer on an equal footing, and have no way to get the Cylons to work on the same level in a peaceful manner. Hence, some means must be taken to deal with the threat. The situation is past the point of "playing nice".

Further, we have no proof that the Cylons are just misunderstood or immature. All we have are a few isolated examples that they're not bloodthirsty monsters bent on the extermination of humanity. So are you willing to bet the lives of the final 40,000 people left that the 3 or 4 out of 10 billion Cylons who display remorse or a willingness to compromise are symptomatic of a larger tendency within the Cylon population? That's an awful risky bet to take, particularly when the consequences of being wrong are so high.

Banshee
 

IcyCool said:
The question is, do you think genocide is humanity's only option?

It's something I thought about before the episode ever aired. The humans have lost their base of operations. They have very little access to resources to replace what they're expending, so their successful flight from the Cylons has a limited possible duration.

Their rate of replacing deaths through battle, Cylon infiltrators nuking entire spaceships, accidents etc. is much lower than the death rate on the show, as displayed by the consistently dropping numbers at the beginning of every episode. Aside from the one time they celebrated the birth of a new human, and the discovery of the Pegasus and crew, that number has been dropping. And at the current point in the show it's been what....a year?

Admittedly, there are further births (and deaths) occurring offscreen, which are not displayed to the viewer. But the number is curving down slowly, or in big leaps, like when Cloud Nine was destroyed, etc.

The Cylons seemed to relent for a while, then changed their minds, and basically attempted to enslave the humans. Let's not mince words about this either. The Cylons were *not* peaceful collaborators or "guides" or anything. The president of the 12 planets made a decision not to sign a document ordering the execution of a bunch of humans, and they put a gun to his head. When one side has the guns, and uses it to coerce the other side, it is not true collaboration or peace. It's occupation, plain and simple.

Whether or not the Cylons are alive, or actually human, is also debatable. Sure, they can think. But in the absence of intervention by crossbreeding with humans, which apparently has a very low success rate, they can't reproduce themselves biologically. They can only build new bodies. They're just silicon machines, like the replicants in Bladerunner.

Given what happened the last time they tried to live peacefully, do the humans have any reason to believe that things would go differently the next time? Dare they take the chance of settling on yet another Earth-like planet? What if the Cylons land again, and this time manage to take out the BSG? It would be either slavery without end, or the extermination of humanity.

Alternatively, they can hope that there is some truth to the legends of Earth, and that the planet actually exists. Given the apparently time that's passed since the last contact with Earth, what are the chances anything would be left in the first place? How great are their chances of finding Earth in the first place?

Now, if they actually *do* find Earth, what will they find? Their distant cousins, at a comparable level of technological sophistication, waiting with arms open for their brothers to return? A burned out planet, exhausted of resources, with piddling populations of humans left, and scraping by? Maybe a well-established population who don't *want* their brothers to come back. Or worst case, the Cylons are simply following and driving the BSG survivors *hoping* that they return to Earth, so that the Cylons can turn around and wipe out *all* humans now that they've discovered where the homeplanet is?

Again, that's taking an awful big chance.

With the information that the crew of BSG and the survivors of the 12 colonies have at hand, I'm not honestly sure that they have many choices. They can't defeat the Cylons in open battle, as they're seriously outgunned, and the law of averages dictates that during one of these conflicts, they won't get lucky. And then it's over. Because of that, they'd be foolish to try and win in open battle. Meaning, they have to do something that catches the Cylons by surprise, and something like a superweapon, bioweapon, or whatever may be one of the only ways to achieve that surprise.

It's a choice between a horrible choice, and an even worse choice, when it comes down to it.

Banshee
 


DM_Matt said:
Thus, if the aggressors are stubbornly violent enough, by your argument, the victims cannot defend themselves.

And this very aspect of the argument makes the humans victims twice over.

In an ordinary world, the crime of genocide is punished in courts of law, and AFAIK, in our modern world, we don't execute people convicted of it. But they do spend the rest of their lives in prison.

However, the Cylons have destroyed the courts, they've destroyed the jail system, they severely outnumber the surviving humans, and are determined to finish the job.

The "right" options have been removed by the absolute success of the Cylon assault. If the humans want to survive, then they have the right to defend themselves.

Banshee
 

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