Better Spell Damage Progression (+Martial fixes to keep things balanced)

[TwoSix]

For scaling, scaling is supposed to make a 1st level spell be on par with, say, a 5th level spell when cast in a higher spell slot, at least for damage.

But that's ignoring the fact that a 1st level spell cast from a 5th level slot should be inferior to a 5th level spell. Choosing a 5th level spell as a spell prepped/known already has a massive opportunity cost, in the fact that you can't use it with your level 1-4 slots. The fact that upscaling is almost always inefficient is what keeps us from the scenario where the optimal play is for casters to prep all 1st level spells, except for a few utility effects that only become present at higher levels. (And yes, I believe that is the design intent, as preparing a breadth of spells across multiple levels has been the default of every prior edition.)

I mean, the spell I can think of right now that becomes a better option when upcast is Armor of Agathys, and considering that's a warlock spell with auto up-scaling, I also assume that's intentional.

Obviously, your game, your house rules, but your design intent cuts against what I perceive to be one of the most elegant features of 5e spell design.

 

[Yunru]

But that's ignoring the fact that a 1st level spell cast from a 5th level slot should be inferior to a 5th level spell. Choosing a 5th level spell as a spell prepped/known already has a massive opportunity cost, in the fact that you can't use it with your level 1-4 slots. The fact that upscaling is almost always inefficient is what keeps us from the scenario where the optimal play is for casters to prep all 1st level spells, except for a few utility effects that only become present at higher levels. (And yes, I believe that is the design intent, as preparing a breadth of spells across multiple levels has been the default of every prior edition.)

I mean, the spell I can think of right now that becomes a better option when upcast is Armor of Agathys, and considering that's a warlock spell with auto up-scaling, I also assume that's intentional.

Obviously, your game, your house rules, but your design intent cuts against what I perceive to be one of the most elegant features of 5e spell design.

There's a reason I specified it to be damage only.
Even if the damage matches, a Burning Hands would still be inferior to Fireball in trrms of area of effect (or not having to be right next to them).

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

60 dice for 9th level spells? So, what you want them to average over 300 hp per spell?

I haven't been around 5E long so don't have a reference, but what is the purpose for changing spell damage? What are hoping to fix??

 

[Yunru]

60 dice for 9th level spells? So, what you want them to average over 300 hp per spell?

Over 300? Only way you'd get over 300 is with a 9th level, single target, spell. And if you're giving up say Wish for that, I wouldn't expect much less.

I haven't been around 5E long so don't have a reference, but what is the purpose for changing spell damage? What are hoping to fix??

That's already covered.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

If it works for you game go for it.

IME jacking up damage even more would make most encounters trivial though. Monsters already fall pretty quick with the low AC values. How many players do you have? And I found that bonus dice crits dominated the outcome of most fights so even more sneak attack and smite damage dice would be huge.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Yes, 300 hp against a single foe, even for a 9th-level spell, is way out of proportion. Other than Nova-strike rounds, where are you going to deal that kind of damage?

Consider the Tarrasque. Average damage if it hits will all its attacks is roughly 225-250, assuming it hits with them all as well. You want your 9th-level damage spells do deal out more punishment than arguably the most powerful monster (by CR anyway) in the game???

And I asked because the explanation you posted in other responses lacks anything akin to showing relevance. If you think there is an issue, and want a complicated fix that impacts major systems of the game, knock yourself out.

I am walking away from this thread now, but good luck to you.

 

[Yunru]

Yes, 300 hp against a single foe, even for a 9th-level spell, is way out of proportion. Other than Nova-strike rounds, where are you going to deal that kind of damage?

Consider the Tarrasque. Average damage if it hits will all its attacks is roughly 225-250, assuming it hits with them all as well. You want your 9th-level damage spells do deal out more punishment than arguably the most powerful monster (by CR anyway) in the game???

And I asked because the explanation you posted in other responses lacks anything akin to showing relevance. If you think there is an issue, and want a complicated fix that impacts major systems of the game, knock yourself out.

I am walking away from this thread now, but good luck to you.

Yes, which it can do every round.

 

[Horwath]

Weapons:

damage dice:

1d3-1d4-1d6-1d8-1d10-1d12-2d6-2d8

Simple weapons; base 1d8,

Martial; base 1d10,


One handed: no change,

Two handed; +2 damage dice categories steps

Heavy: +1 step

Light: -1 step

Finesse: -1 step

Reach: -1 step

Thrown(30/120): -1 step

Versatile: auto for any one handed, non light, non finesse weapons.


Examples:

Club, simple, one handed, light, 1d6.
Longsword,martial, one handed, 1d10, versatile 1d12.
Rapier, martial, one handed, finesse, 1d8.
Scimitar, martial, one handed, light, finesse, 1d6.
Greatsword, martial, two handed, heavy, 2d8.