D&D 5E Brainstorming New Wildshape/Polymorph

[Xeviat]

Hi everyone. In this thread, I'd like to discuss creating a new system for polymorph and wildshape, especially Circle of the Moon Druid wildshape. I don't want to get bogged down on if these systems should be changed, but on how to change them. I would like to discuss where the problems are, what works, and what isn't working. I am aware that the existing systems are working for most people, especially given that google doesn't bring up much when searching "D&D 5E variant wild shape". So, here goes.

My chief concern is with the circle of the moon Druid. From my experience, the forms are too powerful at low levels and then there is a damage drop off at higher levels where the ability just becomes a source of piles of HP. I appreciate how simple it is to use, especially since I use Roll20 mostly, but I don't think it's quite doing its job. Gaining the animal's hp, on top of being able to heal as a bonus action with spell slots, makes them nearly unkillable.

I believe wildshape shouldn't give you a separate pool of HP. It should just use your own HP. I haven't had a caster use polymorph in my games yet, but I suspect concentration works as a big balancer for those spells.

Rather than use the animal stats out of the monster manual, I've always wanted to have form choices with a list of abilities you can choose. But that might be far too complex.

But I'm worried that simply having wildshape use your own HP would be a big nerf, especially since many animals seem to be built with low AC and high HP for their CR.

What are your thoughts? How have moon Druids worked out in your games?


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[Fanaelialae]

I'm playing a moon druid with polymorph prepared in one of the campaigns I'm playing in. It does start off quite strong at 2nd level (though not in a "I'm a one man party kind of way") and grow less powerful as it progresses.

We just hit 9th level at the end of last night, and in both deadly fights of the night (party of five 8th level PCs vs 3 Abominable Yeti / 1 Remorhaz) my druid took a far worse beating than either of the barbarian (admittedly, they both have bear totem). The Yetis we fought for approximately 5 rounds before we decided there was no chance of us winning and we retreated (blew through one wild shape and most of my HP). The Remorhaz we managed to down at the expense of a lot of hp, but it cost me 2 wild shapes and most of my HP. In all of the above cases, I didn't even get to expend spell slots to heal because they blew through the 42 hp of my polar bear form (which is special, and has an AC of 15) in a single round.

Right now my biggest concern is that I just unlocked CR 3 forms (which would be welcome, because polar bear does not really feel up to snuff anymore) but we're in a landlocked fantasy version of Russia (cold) so I can't imagine how I'm going to acquire any of the CR 3 forms (which consists of ankylosaurus, giant scorpion, and killer whale). So, right now, one of my big concerns is that there are no CR 3 beasts common to this area, which means I'm going to be stuck with polar bear for the foreseeable future. I've already acquired mammoth form, but won't be able to use it until level 18. Currently I feel that it would be nice if there were more beasts in the CR 3-6 range for the druid to choose from. Granted, I will be getting elemental wild shape next level, but we don't short rest after every battle.

Frankly, low level power-wise, I think the only tweak the moon druid could use is to reduce his wild shape CR at 2nd level to 1/2. I thought about implementing that myself, but then decided the change was more trouble than it's worth (it's only for one, very short, level).

As for polymorph, I've only used it for utility and defense (turning an enemy into a frog) in this campaign. I did use it offensively in a previous campaign (on the party fighter, who was one hit away from unconsciousness) where it worked well but wasn't crazy. Any time I use polymorph I usually fall back and sling spells (usually cantrips), because I'm concerned about losing concentration.

I wouldn't recommend taking away the bonus hp. Without those, you would likely have to give the moon druid crazy bonuses to keep him competitive with other front-line classes. As it is, IME the moon druid is a far cry from unkillable in any scenario that can potentially kill other front liners (like barbarians). I'm not saying that a moon druid has to be 100% as tough as a barbarian (druids have spells to fall back on) but a moon druid who focuses on wild shape ought to be in the same ballpark. Only the bonus hp make it so. Without those my character would be a damp stain many times over (as it is, he's been reduced to zero hp plenty of times), and that's with the 2 barbarians typically taking the brunt of aggression (in MMO terms my druid is more of an off-tank than a primary tank). The low AC of basically all beast forms ensures that you will get hit constantly, so without the bonus hp you'd be toast. I suppose that you could have wild shape increase the druid's AC instead, but that might be a tricky balancing act. Overall, I like that the moon druid has a different playstyle than a fighter. I just wish there were more choices of forms at the higher CRs (in my case, creatures suited to an arctic environment).

 

[Xeviat]

Thanks for your thoughts. I've only seen moon Druids live from 2nd to 5th. I'd be very tempted to just build in CR scaling to animal forms for the situation you're in; the occasional AC and attack bonus boost paired mostly with +6 damage and +15 HP.

My thoughts on moon Druid HP is that they have their bonus action heals. Most hyperbolic situation possible, a moon Druid could devote all of their spell slots to healing to stay in beast form as much as possible. This amounts to ALOT of extra HP per day.

Just tracking the raw damage of a creature based on CR level/3 nets damage reasonably close to Rogue damage, minus all of their additional abilities. Rogue and Druid HP match assuming the same con (and a high level rogue has more opportunity to boost their con, unless a moon Druid totally ignores their Con). But, the animal forms have lower to hit than players do at those levels, and the moon Druid lacks a way to use their spell slots for offense in beast form until very high level.

I've always felt like limited forms, with some options to specialize them, maybe with some temp HP to make up for the lower AC (not that Druids are high AC characters anyway) would have worked better. How has your offensive oomph felt in combat?


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[Yunru]

My thoughts on moon Druid HP is that they have their bonus action heals. Most hyperbolic situation possible, a moon Druid could devote all of their spell slots to healing to stay in beast form as much as possible. This amounts to ALOT of extra HP per day.

Does it though? A Cleric could easily do the same thing, and yet that's not a problem.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Thanks for your thoughts. I've only seen moon Druids live from 2nd to 5th. I'd be very tempted to just build in CR scaling to animal forms for the situation you're in; the occasional AC and attack bonus boost paired mostly with +6 damage and +15 HP.

My thoughts on moon Druid HP is that they have their bonus action heals. Most hyperbolic situation possible, a moon Druid could devote all of their spell slots to healing to stay in beast form as much as possible. This amounts to ALOT of extra HP per day.

Just tracking the raw damage of a creature based on CR level/3 nets damage reasonably close to Rogue damage, minus all of their additional abilities. Rogue and Druid HP match assuming the same con (and a high level rogue has more opportunity to boost their con, unless a moon Druid totally ignores their Con). But, the animal forms have lower to hit than players do at those levels, and the moon Druid lacks a way to use their spell slots for offense in beast form until very high level.

I've always felt like limited forms, with some options to specialize them, maybe with some temp HP to make up for the lower AC (not that Druids are high AC characters anyway) would have worked better. How has your offensive oomph felt in combat?


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Offensively he's not bad. Not top damage, but respectable.

In theory you could spend all of your spells for hp. In practice, it isn't that simple.

For starters, which would you rather use a 4th level spell slot on? Polymorph, or healing 18 damage to a temporary pool of hp? Personally, I'd only use a 4th level slot to heal if I felt that death was the alternative. It's a bad trade otherwise.

Using low level slots is more palatable, but at later levels monsters typically do a lot more than those slots can soak.

Last but not least, it only works if the monster(s) you're facing can't blow through your hp in a single round. That's happened to me on multiple occasions to date.

My polar bear form only has 42 hp. Even were I to gain one of the CR 3 forms, that's still less than 70 hp (not counting the killer whale, which is highly situational). At level 9, lots of creatures can output that kind of damage in a single round, and as a moon druid you can pretty much count on getting hit because your AC sucks.

That said, I'm not opposed to your idea of a scaling form with better AC and temporary hp. I just think it might be tricky to get right. IMO, you don't want it to feel like a nerf because then players won't be happy with the concept (it doesn't do what it's supposed to do). I'm experiencing a bit of that frustration in the game I'm playing in because the setting isn't favorable to my learning new forms, so I've been stuck at times using forms that are weaker than what would be optimal (it was noticeable). You also don't want it to be overpowered for obvious reasons. Finding the goldilocks zone for moon druids might take some doing, so you probably want to be certain that whatever issue you're perceiving is worth that effort.

 

[Xeviat]

Does it though? A Cleric could easily do the same thing, and yet that's not a problem.

A cleric could, but the cleric doesn't also get 42 (polar bear example) extra HP twice per short rest on top of having spell slots to refill HP.

As for where I could go with the variant, the Barbarian might be a point to start looking at. Rage doesn't give extra HP, but it gives resistance to damage. That could be a less fiddly way of handling things.

But then the question is really what is the Moon Druid meant to do with their wildshape? Is it meant to be an occasional thing or a rather constant thing?

I definitely am not looking to nerf the moon druid (except maybe at the very low levels). I'm mostly concerned that the high level forms just end up being extra HP. I'm also concerned about the power of infinite mammoth at level 20, but level 20 is all over the place.

My gut says I'd rather the moon druid have some preset forms, lets say a "battle form" (comparable to a rogue; highish damage, low AC), a "dire form" (comparable to a fighter; higher defenses), and the elemental form on top of a small scouting form, swimming form, and flying form for the base druid. Think WoW almost. Given that the Valor Bard, Blade Warlock, and Bladesinger Wizard are given Extra Attack, the moon druid would basically be the "attacker druid" with a solid basic attack in their beast form. Resistance to damage could work as a way of handling a defensive form, and they could still keep Combat Wild Shape's bonus action heal (I'd also be tempted to give Primal Strike a bonus action smite).

Would that be something you think you'd be okay with?

 

[jaelis]

My players who like druids really like being able to turn into animals. Adjusting the power level to suit your game makes sense, but if you make it too abstract I would worry about losing the flavor. You might consider adjusting the various animal stats; it's not like they get used a lot outside of wildshape (and summons I suppose).

 

[Xeviat]

Here's what I'm fiddling with right now.

Wild Shape allows a druid to take on the form of an animal. It costs an action and lasts as long as they want, and is a bonus action to exit. It requires concentration. The base Druid gets the following forms:

Wild Shape Forms

Level	Form
2nd	Scout form
4th	Swimming form
8th	Flying form

There will be base stats for each form. You will retain your HP but take on all the other stats of the form. Their attacks will be melee spell attacks (so you can use your Wisdom) and will be based on cantrip scaling. The specific nature of the form is up to the player/character. There may be a secondary table of features which you can choose to add to help mimic the animal you are turning into (like keen senses or fly-by), but I may just bake those into these because these forms shouldn't need to be too complicated.

Arch Druid will need to be completely reworked. I'm really willing to steal from the Wizard's Spell Mastery or Signature spell abilities. Arch Druid doesn't really seem to help Land Druids anyway (unless you want to hide as a mouse and blast people, trusting that no one will knock you out of the form).

Then there's the moon druid.

Combat Wild Shape
This will be the same, except it will remove the concentration requirement.

Circle Forms
This will add the following forms:

Level	Form
2nd	Predator form
6th	Dire form
10th	Elemental form
14th	Behemoth form

Predator form is for things like wolves, panthers, and others. It's fast and mobile. It's AC will be like a light armor wielder, and use the druid's Wisdom (12+Wis), making it comparable to a rogue. To mimic specific animals, there will be choices for each form's special attack, such as pounce, trample/charge, or a wolf's trip. This form attacks once. It's damage will scale like a cantrip, and be a melee spell attack with Wis to hit and damage. This damage starts off comparable to a rogue's, but it doesn't scale as well (lacking multiple attacks). The "Primal Strike" ability will help make up for that. At 4th and 8th, "aquatic" and "flying" respectively will be added to the table of ability choices (meaning choosing one of them limits the other choices, helping to balance them). Since it's damage scales not as good as a Rogue, once Dire Form is gained Predator form becomes more for when mobility is needed (it could gain bonus action dash or disengage to help with that).

Dire form is for large beasts like dire wolves, tigers, and large bears. It's less mobile, but more defensive. I'm thinking of either having it's AC set like a medium armor wearing shield user (18-19 at those levels), but I might just have the AC be 10+Wis and give it resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage; it's big, and thus easy to hit, but it's made of a bunch of meat and thus it doesn't take damage as easily. Same as before, it will have some ability options. It will have multi-attack, making it's damage comparable to getting Extra Attack (same time the Valor Bard, Blade Warlock, and the Bladesinger get it). The damage will continue to scale, gaining additional dice at 11th and 17th. This scaling is a bit behind a Sword & Board + Duelist Fighter, but again "Primal Strike" will help. And like before, at 8th level "flying" is added to the table of ability choices.

Elemental form will have the, well, elemental forms, and a plant form because I like that (like a tree or shambling mound). It'll be really comparable to the offensive power of the dire form, but offer variety.

Behemoth form is for huge beasts like mammoths, t-rexes, rocs, whales, and the like.

Primal Strike
This will have added to it: "Additionally, while you are transformed by Wild Shape, you can use a bonus action to expend one spell slot to add 1d8 damage, plus 1d8 per level of the spell slot expended (max 5d8) to your next attack that hits, and requires concentration to hold." This is effectively the paladin's smite, altered a bit. This allows the Moon Druid to keep using their spells for damage. It's functionally similar to a valor bard, blade warlock, or bladesinger wizard dipping Paladin to get smite, but also slightly weaker. The main reason for adding this was to help the damage scaling but also add an option for moon druids who want to stay in animal form a lot.

Elemental Wild Shape
This will be altered to have spell slot activated powers for the elemental forms, like firebursts, whirlwinds, tremors, waves, or entangling vines.

Thousand Forms
This feature can remain the same.

Thoughts?

 

[Xeviat]

My players who like druids really like being able to turn into animals. Adjusting the power level to suit your game makes sense, but if you make it too abstract I would worry about losing the flavor. You might consider adjusting the various animal stats; it's not like they get used a lot outside of wildshape (and summons I suppose).

I was strongly considering just having scaled CR versions of the animals that a druid had available (based on what they've seen), but the more and more I thought on it, the more I couldn't really reconcile the way HP were working for the form. The "Alternate Form" ability on monsters doesn't do what polymorph does. So I'm going to keep working on my variant and see how it goes. I know I wasn't liking the moon druids I saw at low levels, and I don't like the way players have described them working otherwise.

For Polymorph, I may tweak the Pathfinder polymorph spells and use those.

 

[schnee]

I was strongly considering just having scaled CR versions of the animals that a druid had available (based on what they've seen), but the more and more I thought on it, the more I couldn't really reconcile the way HP were working for the form. The "Alternate Form" ability on monsters doesn't do what polymorph does. So I'm going to keep working on my variant and see how it goes. I know I wasn't liking the moon druids I saw at low levels, and I don't like the way players have described them working otherwise.

For Polymorph, I may tweak the Pathfinder polymorph spells and use those.

Well, speaking as a Land Druid player, we get significantly more spells (due to spell recovery), and such a wider range of them (the two free spells known per spell level via each Circle) that I think a Moon Druid can't be considered a 'full caster'. They are nowhere near a Cleric with their domain abilities and spells, or a Wizard with all of their stuff. The spells they do get are strong, but with those limitations, and burning so many spell slots to heal in Wild Shape combat, they feel like 3/4 of a caster strong.

The Wild Shape is a significant part of their power, so be careful. The extra HP are basically a different mechanic of measuring the effect of a Barbarian's rage or Bear Totem resistances. Remember, those HP being soaked aren't hitting the rest of the party. And, with the frankly horrible AC of those shapes, the Druid is soaking even more than they should, and burning more of their spells to heal in the process.

So, don't look at the HP, see a big number and react too strongly - at higher levels they are having possibly even less effect in the combat as a caster holding a Concentration battlefield control spell and throwing cantrips than soaking huge damage in Wild Shape - they are mainly a literal 'meat shield'.

So, take that for what it's worth - I haven't seen a level 12+ Circle of the Moon in play myself.