D&D 5E Breaking down the Fighter archetypes.

I personally see the Champion as the "Basic" and the Battlemaster as the "Advanced" version of the same thing; the tough as nails, expert with all weapons and none, warrior par excellence. It's not that either of these subclasses really does anything different from the other-it's just a question of how much what they do is abstracted into a die roll.

Sure the flavor text reads a little differently, but that's flavor text. It's meant to inspire the players creativity, not stifle it.

Unfortunately, that's both a strength and a weakness. It's a strength because it allows players the versatility of complexity in this one class. It's a weakness because the character archetypes aren't defined as clearly as some would like them to be. Mearls himself expressed it as one of his bigish regrets with the 5e PHB.

I thought they weren't different enough at first, but as I've seen them play, I've noticed the characters they gravitate towards portraying tend toward different types. Mostly because the Battle Master appeals more to tactical players, and the types of characters tactical players play tend to be tactical characters. In the past, that was the Wizard's job. Now the Fighter can be tactical too (obviously, I'm oversimplifying the story of how we got here, but you know what I mean).

It makes no sense that the Battlemaster has maneuvers yet for some reason those can not be used by the champion or EK. Where technically, the EK should be a separate class. The only reason the champion exists is for game reasons so someone can use a simple class. So overall the fighter archetypes are an anomaly when compared against each other. You have much more cohesion when looking at a wizard/subclasses, monk/subclasses, etc.

Not sure what you mean. A Monk of the Open Hand can't do all the shadow dancing stuff that Monks of Shadow do. A Conjuration Wizard can't make portends. Likewise, a Champion can't do maneuvers.

Except it can, because there's specifically a feat that lets you access superiority dice and maneuvers regardless of your class and subclass choice. So if anything, the Battle Master's maneuvers are the odd one out BECAUSE they can be accessed by other characters without multiclassing.
 
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So why you insist on pretending this discussion hasn't happened over and over and insist on making the same argument is beyond me. I don't know, maybe the fighter stole your girlfriend so you're bound and determined to complain about them. Maybe the very concept of thinking out of the box to do actions not listed on your character sheet like players have been doing for 40 years is something you can't grasp. I don't know. Don't really care.


The real question you should be asking yourself is not why he discusses this way, but how you came to think making the discussion personal was going to be a good idea for you. Your disavowal of caring rings hollow, when you are in the same breath trying to use it as ad hominem to dismiss someone's point of view.

In taking this insulting approach, you have moved the discussion from something possibly still reasonable over into the realm of being an ego contest, and have signaled to all present that you are willing to attack people in order to try to make your point. This does not make you, or your point, look good. And, it gets you the hairy eyeball from the moderators, which was probably not your goal.

In the future (and I'll put it in big letters, so you can't miss it) DON'T MAKE IT PERSONAL! Address the logic of the post, not the person of the poster. If you can't make your point without attacking the person, then don't bother making the point, please and thank you.
 

Unfortunately, that's both a strength and a weakness. It's a strength because it allows players the versatility of complexity in this one class. It's a weakness because the character archetypes aren't defined as clearly as some would like them to be. Mearls himself expressed it as one of his bigish regrets with the 5e PHB.

What really gets me, though, is that people openly deny this--they say Mearls is just flat wrong. If the/a lead designer is openly disappointed about something she or he feels is lacking in the game as written...I mean, it's an opinion for one thing, but it's also an opinion from the closest possible thing to an "expert" on the subject. He's got the inside knowledge, be it survey info or simply designer awareness of what's going on. If he regrets the lack of strong identity in these things, it's probably for decently good reasons.

I thought they weren't different enough at first, but as I've seen them play, I've noticed the characters they gravitate towards portraying tend toward different types. Mostly because the Battle Master appeals more to tactical players, and the types of characters tactical players play tend to be tactical characters. In the past, that was the Wizard's job. Now the Fighter can be tactical too (obviously, I'm oversimplifying the story of how we got here, but you know what I mean).

I find the tactical-ness comparison...inapt. Initially, you have 4 dice. Based on the expected number of short rests per long rest (2 to 3), that gives you 4*(1+2) = 12, perhaps 16 dice. That compares...moderately well with spells available; a 3rd level Wizard can cast four 1st-level and two 2nd-level spells, plus an additional 2 spell levels' worth of recovered spells (either two 1st or one 2nd). 7-8 spells vs. 12-16 dice means between 2x-2.5x as many "special things" done, theoretically balanced out by spells being more impactful and far broader plus Fighters having solid (if largely un-tactical) baseline features. However, by the time a BM is getting his second die (7th), the Wizard has four 1st-, three 2nd-, three 3rd-, and one 4th-level spell, and can recover an additional 4 spell levels (one 4th, 3rd+1st, two 2nd, one 2nd and two 1st, or four 1st); even with three short rests per long, that's 5x4=20 dice vs. 12 minimum spells (the lower number being more likely, as recovering higher-level spell slots is more valuable), and more likely only 15 dice vs. 12 spells. By level 15, it's at best 6x4=24 dice vs. 18 spells + ~2 recovered spells, and more commonly only 18 dice vs. 20 spells.

Yes, this gives Fighters some presence in the "resource management" stuff, which in 3e-and-before was almost exclusively the province of casters (and Wizards especially). Maneuvers really don't strike me (heh) as particularly tactical though--you want to use them quickly, and you want to go for the ones that are as universal and impactful as possible (which, sadly, is only like 2-3 of them...enough that you'll have all of them by level 7, if not from the very first...er, 3rd, I should say :P). Their "scaling" is sharply limited, and you never get to pick from a broader, more comprehensive, or more powerful set, so they lack nearly all of the long-term planning present in spell selection. And since basically all of them are just riders on top of a successful attack (or preparation to make sure an attack is successful), and they have literally no other use, you may as well just throw them on ASAP when monsters still have most of their HP.

For comparison, I consider the Paladin "Divine Smite" ability dramatically more tactical (albeit still a bit dull for my taste) because you're having to make a difficult decision: keep the spell slot, which has a variety of uses and can make a dramatic difference in the right context, or get the smite damage, which can kill a difficult enemy quickly and thus prevent bad things from happening in the first place. Superiority Dice don't get this tension between "unknown open-ended utility later, or concrete and focused utility right now." It's merely a choice between "use it now, or use it later, and hopefully don't waste it," which is dramatically less tactical.

Interesting, but i think this is exactly what i think makes the current classes so versatile and flexible. In 4E i.e. this was completely reversed. You'd need a hell of "liberated" GM to do anything outside the box. The rules were so "tight", the classes so shoehorned, you were stuck given roles even if you had plenty to do with your PC 9on paper). I actually find the 5E back to the roots approach "liberating".

Yeah...this is gonna just be one of those things, I expect, because my feelings are diametrically opposite. I see this as being "liberated" from having something you know you can do well, while still being completely able to employ imaginative solutions (that were actually backed up with solid, balanced adjudication!). Incidentally, it's really not true that you'd need a "liberated" GM. 4e had Page 42, which provided open-ended, scale-able adjudication for almost any kind of combat stunt you wanted to try, which made them not only achievable (many GMs don't understand how probability works, and make things far too hard by accident), but actually worth doing (damage scaling was roughly on par with an Encounter power, helping to avoid feeling like the action was "wasted.") There were also Skill Challenges, which were a good try, though they did take a while to reach actual "balance" and the devs never really made full use of their potential, sadly.
 
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....... (many GMs don't understand how probability works, and make things far too hard by accident), but actually worth doing (damage scaling was roughly on par with an Encounter power, helping to avoid feeling like the action was "wasted.") There were also Skill Challenges, which were a good try, though they did take a while to reach actual "balance" and the devs never really made full use of their potential, sadly.

I think you hit the spot with this one. Unfortunately, it's so easy to get lost and (as ironically as it seams) get railroaded in all those rules. Skill challenges rocked though!

Except it can, because there's specifically a feat that lets you access superiority dice and maneuvers regardless of your class and subclass choice. So if anything, the Battle Master's maneuvers are the odd one out BECAUSE they can be accessed by other characters without multiclassing.

I was about to concede and then i saw this. Yeah, you are actually right. Which sure makes so interesting builds from both mechanical and RP perspective :)

EDIT: maybe we should define and distinguish the meaning of "tactical" in order to make sure we are talking about the same things? Personally i like the division of operational VS tactical VS strategic in my strategy gaming, but i'm not sure it will apply that well for RPGs....
 
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I think you hit the spot with this one. Unfortunately, it's so easy to get lost and (as ironically as it seams) get railroaded in all those rules. Skill challenges rocked though!

That's a new one--I've never heard of getting "lost" (in the "I have no idea what's going on!!" sense) in stuff like Page 42. It's only a couple pages of rules, plus (IIRC, I'm too lazy to dig out my 4e DMG) a couple of tables, right? And, in theory anyway, the players need never actually look at those rules at all--they're just a useful tool in the (4e) DM's pocket.

maybe we should define and distinguish the meaning of "tactical" in order to make sure we are talking about the same things? Personally i like the division of operational VS tactical VS strategic in my strategy gaming, but i'm not sure it will apply that well for RPGs....

"Tactical" things, for me, need...a certain kind of build-up, I guess is the best way to put it.

1. They need to be elective, not passive. Extra crit range, or always being able to make 2 attacks when you take the Attack action, can't be "tactical." You aren't choosing to use them, they simply happen as an automatic part of stuff you would definitely always be doing (making attack rolls).

2. They need to have meaningful trade-offs. "Use it now, or use it later" is not a particularly meaningful trade-off. A true opportunity cost, e.g. "get a small but potentially-pivotal benefit right now, or an undefined but potentially-large benefit later" is one kind of meaningful trade-off. Another kind of trade-off is electing to take on a greater risk in the hope of a greater reward, or going for a safer but less-rewarding path.

3. Where applicable, they need to have alternatives that are roughly similar in breadth and power. I would not consider it a "tactical" choice to choose between an ability that provides a largely situational benefit (e.g. "bonus damage to undead creatures") and only works under uncommon circumstances (e.g. "when you make a save against a Fear effect"), and another ability that provides a very general benefit (e.g. "hit bonus") and works under extremely common circumstances ("when you make a melee attack.") The fewer alternatives available, the more it is necessary that all of them be, again, roughly similar in breadth and power--though an increase in one can be partially made up for by a decrease in the other or vice-versa, it's a touchy thing.

4. Their frequency should be inversely proportional to their power. Spells are almost always really powerful things, so a character casting more than two spells in a single encounter (whether combat or not) is something of a Big Deal. Maneuvers, on the other hand, almost always affect just a single attack roll, and (at most) inflict a status condition for a single round, possibly less. Thus, for them to reach a similar tactical level, they need to come up more often than spells--sometimes substantially more often. (Hence why I noted, above, that maneuver dice actually fall behind number of spells cast, despite being distinctly less powerful than 3rd or even 2nd level spells most of the time.)

5. They need to involve the expenditure of a resource. This one's a bit of a no-brainer, and kinda merges with both #2 (resource expenditure = opportunity cost) and #3 (resource can be spent on different, but commensurate, things). I suspect a lot of people see the presence of resource expenditure as wholly sufficient for a class to be "tactical," but I couldn't disagree more. I see resource expenditure as not at all sufficient, but very much necessary, for a class to be "tactical."
 

EDIT: maybe we should define and distinguish the meaning of "tactical" in order to make sure we are talking about the same things? Personally i like the division of operational VS tactical VS strategic in my strategy gaming, but i'm not sure it will apply that well for RPGs....

I know there's a difference between tactics and strategy. When I say tactical, I'm misusing the word in the same way the Tactical Warlord misuses it, and the way the "Tactician" class in RPGs such as "Fire Emblem: Awakening" semi-misuse it: this may or may not be the person who makes the big strategic choices in the game (in FE:A, it is, because s/he's your avatar, so s/he's commanding the army, but in D&D, the tactical warlord wasn't necessarily the team leader, telling everyone else how to use their actions and moves). But it's a character who emphasises resource management, strategic movement and techniques, and working as a member of a cohesive group to overcome obstacles. Whether you take the more swashbuckling maneuvers or the more Int-warlording maneuvers, your Battle Master Fighter is leaning on this side of game play, much like a caster might.
 

That's a new one--I've never heard of getting "lost" (in the "I have no idea what's going on!!" sense) in stuff like Page 42. It's only a couple pages of rules, plus (IIRC, I'm too lazy to dig out my 4e DMG) a couple of tables, right? And, in theory anyway, the players need never actually look at those rules at all--they're just a useful tool in the (4e) DM's pocket.

Ah, that's not what i meant by lost. Not in that set of rule, but in all the rules in general. When i think of 4E, the first thing i remember about the classes i played, is all the pages of power cards and all the fine details of their working :)

As for the rest of the post, i think i now understand why you think the way you do. From the 5 points (requirements) you noted for the "tactical" dimension of a character, it would follow that the BM is indeed not as tactical as many people would think (though still not tactical-less.... is that even a word?).

For me though, the word tactical has a somewhat different meaning that somewhat inter crosses with yours, but inly partially. The first thing that comes to mind (and the least relevant to DnD) is the meaning of tactical as a military in nature (i.e. tactical knife, tactical vest). On the board (or table) on the other hand, this description doesn't quite fit so well. So when i mean of tactical, i actually mean of the way (as in means) by which one conducts the strategic goals. Now to just be more clear, by strategic i mean in part what you mean by tactical. Like resource management. Mages above all, to me were always the most strategic of classes. They best worked with long term goals, mostly because of the limited resources but the high impact of those same resources. But strategic also means (to me) the final result of the general intent (in this case passing a skill challenge or winning an encounter). So where do tactics figure into all this?

Well, the tactics are the how strategy works into the turn by turn mechanics. I.E. if the general strategy for your party in battle is to channel the enemies into a killing zone, where your casters can bombard it with large number of AoEs or high DP(round/turn) attacks/spells, then the tactics are how do you do it. One way would be to draw them out to your (prov) tank(s), and then once engaged, do your thing. Or alternatively you can flank them on either side and contain them to a certain area. Or you could scout ahead and engaged the from BVR. As such, the tactical classes would be the classes that make these transitions "smoother" or "enable" them. In 4E this was the "controller" class (the mage). (For that i never forgave 4E, but let's not dwell on that). In more general RPG terms though, these would be the classes that can move around the field more effectively, enable others to move, hinder movement, enforce special conditions on targets or allies, and so on.

To me this instantaneously screams rogues! And in 5E i see them as the most "tactical" of all the classes. I can see the arguments that some of casters also possess some of the spells needed for tactical ventures. However, the very nature of the limited resources they field, makes them in my eyes more of a strategic asset. Where does the BM figure into all this? The way i see it, the BM is the "tactical" version of the fighter. Is it the most tactical class in the system as it now stands? Not quite. But it certainly is the most tactical of the fighter archetypes. The Eldritch Knight being the most strategic of course and the Champion being the most direct (hands on) type. This doesn't mean that there are no strategic considerations to the BM as well. The limited availability of the SD (as you mentioned) is the primary culprit here. Compare it to the rogues more readily available pool of skills and proficiencies. However, given the more renewable nature of the SD when compared to the spell slots, i still think the BM is closer to the tactical role, then the caster. Objectively the BM is probably somewhere 1/2 way between a caster and a rogue. Still not to shabby for a fighter though (that originally just bashing things on the head mostly - mechanically wise) :)

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I know there's a difference between tactics and strategy. When I say tactical, I'm misusing the word in the same way the Tactical Warlord misuses it, and the way the "Tactician" class in RPGs such as "Fire Emblem: Awakening" semi-misuse it: this may or may not be the person who makes the big strategic choices in the game (in FE:A, it is, because s/he's your avatar, so s/he's commanding the army, but in D&D, the tactical warlord wasn't necessarily the team leader, telling everyone else how to use their actions and moves). But it's a character who emphasises resource management, strategic movement and techniques, and working as a member of a cohesive group to overcome obstacles. Whether you take the more swashbuckling maneuvers or the more Int-warlording maneuvers, your Battle Master Fighter is leaning on this side of game play, much like a caster might.

Indeed. This is very close to what i had in mind in my original statement. To be honest, it would be very hard to make a real leader type character in a table top RPG. It will require a very cooperative group, GM and very skillful RP-ing on part of everyone. Kudos to the people that have pulled it off (i know some), but it is never the less a challenge for more green or even average players.
 
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You mean Battle Master, not Weapon Master, right? You keep using the abbreviation WM. That was a build of Fighter in 4e. The Archetype in 5e is BM.
 


I can agree with anyone that says champions are boring, because for people who want all the bells and whistles and complication BUILT IN to their class' mechanics, the champion doesn't have that.

I can agree with anyone that says champions are simple, because they just goddam are. All of their features are passive, easy to understand, and require zero thought or cognition to be used effectively.

What I can't agree with is the fact that people think champion is a trap option, or in ANY way inferior to battlemaster and eldritch knight. Yes, the battlemaster can do interesting things. 6 times per short rest at max level. Yes, EK can do amazing things, a handful of times per long rest. Yes, the champion requires feats and a focused set up in order to truly shine, but that in no way marginalizes the champion's effectiveness or deadliness.

While BM can nova better, champion hits like a truck all day long. Limitless resource in the extra crit range. Out of combat goodies with remarkable athlete. Troll regeneration at higher levels. Sure, it's not flashy, it's not complicated, but it most certainly isn't anything other than a :):):):)ing awesome archetype for those that are aware enough to make it great.
 

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