D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[FrogReaver]

Wish can. Wish is a long ways away but I guess if we're talking those levels wish counts.

I don't think we are but, wish simulacrum is enough to make any class with wish be top tier once they reach that level IMO.

 

[FrogReaver]

And 65% hit chance is probably why I don't think wizard with scorching ray and CME lvl 7/9 will win.

I thought you had ruled out CME in your OP? Otherwise it's almost surely just a question of what class can synergize best with CME, a kind of boring question IMO.

 

[Zardnaar]

I thought you had ruled out CME in your OP? Otherwise it's almost surely just a question of what class can synergize best with CME, a kind of boring question IMO.

Mostly but if someone came up with a wizard 7 or 9 CME it's worth a look maybe. Some multi class character 12or 13 could probably do it buy be unplayable/weak eg fighter 2/Valor bard 10,/warlock1.

The high level builds always boil down to CME so there's not really much point and it's white room atm.

If anyone can beat a scorching ray+hex with potentially more on tactical use of fireball and Chromatic Orb put up a build. I'm not that set on it if I'm wrongleaning heavily on treantmonk tbh).

 

[mellored]

If it is as easy to hide as you think

See Invisibility.

he will be doing that 10d6 to YOU

Foresight. Can't sneak attack with disadvantage.
Or just turn invisible yourself.
Also Shield and mirror image.

You will need at least 3 slots (and 3 rounds) to land mass suggestion on a 20th level Rogue, and probably more like 5.

Good thing a level 20 wizard can cast mass suggestion 5 times, plus foresight.

 

[mellored]

If I were playing the rogue I would cooperate anyway. Two of me would clearly be better than one.

1 Rogue and 4 wizards.
Is now a party of 5 rogues and 4 wizards.

Simulacrum comes with a hurdles anyway. The 12 hour casting time is long and snow / ice isn't readily available on demand so it tends to depend on climate and season.

Control weather.

There's a 1500gp consumable cost per casting, the simulacrum can only be healed by a repair process, and that repair cost of 100gp per hp repaired is a massive cost.

That's why i picked rogues.
They can most easily deal damage while avoiding taking any. Stand in the back, hit and run.

4 wizards can lay down plenty of web and other control while 5 rogues will pick them off.

It wouldn't work as well to copy a Barbarian.

 

[TwoSix]

So....yeah. There are, objectively, conditions under which pure-martial characters can overtake mostly- or primarily-spellcaster characters on damage. But most of the conditions which would invite this are either working against how people prefer to play 5e, or against the fundamental design of the system, or against the monster design of the system, or doing things that are often less interesting than doing the opposite. Which...basically means that we're left with "spellcasters deciding to let the martial characters be the stars" or "DM deciding to nerf casters and buff martials in this game."

I think of it this way.

Assume you were entering blindly into a random 10th level adventure with 4 10th level characters.

Would you rather have a party of

A) Fighter, barbarian, monk, rogue or
B) Wizard, cleric, druid, sorcerer?

If we can get that scenario somewhere in the range of "60% pick B, 40% pick A", then I'd say we've given martials enough utility and flexibility. But I don't think we're there yet.

 

[mellored]

Mostly but if someone came up with a wizard 7 or 9 CME it's worth a look maybe.

Best would be CME + Scorching Ray.
But that takes your 2 big spells and does appropriately big damage.

Some multi class character 12or 13 could probably do it buy be unplayable/weak eg fighter 2/Valor bard 10,/warlock1.

Dunno why that would be unplayable.
Warcaster and Spell Sniper.

Misty step into position.
Attack, nick (at -1), Eldritch blast * 3 = 5 attacks.
Action surge, attack, Eldritch Blast *3 = 4 attacks
= 9 attacks * 4d8 CME + (6* 1d10+4)
= 213 damage * 50% accuracy
= 106.5 damage nova.

You'd need to know about a battle 10 minutes in advance, otherwise you waste turn 1, but expetise in stealth, arcane eye, or etc can give you it most of the time.

And you have good AC (warlock slot for shield spell), bardic inspiration to toss out, and a bunch of spells.

It's not overpowered at that level, especially on longer days when you run out of CME or lose concentration (get Resilient Con next). But it's definitely playable.

 

[Umbran]

Cast simulacrum on a rogue.
You now deal more damage than the rogue.

You're also a 13+ level caster, taking 12 hours to cast the spell.
This is becoming a "if Batman has time to prepare..." argument.

 

[TwoSix]

You're also a 13+ level caster, taking 12 hours to cast the spell.
This is becoming a "if Batman has time to prepare..." argument.

For sure. But that's a core issue with casters, their tropes often support narratives of them being able to turn their time and resources into more power.

If they're allowed to do that, they'll generally outclass martials. If they're not allowed to do that, their narrative is damaged. A good number of players play casters precisely because they like the narrative and gameplay of "If I have time to prepare..."

 

[Umbran]

For sure. But that's a core issue with casters, their tropes often support narratives of them being able to turn their time and resources into more power.

If they're allowed to do that, they'll generally outclass martials. If they're not allowed to do that, their narrative is damaged. A good number of players play casters precisely because they like the narrative and gameplay of "If I have time to prepare..."

Yes, but that narrative is a game design nightmare. If the caster can get significant power with preparation, you cannot expect the class to be balanced for the prepared, and unprepared state at the same time.