D&D (2024) Can A Spell Caster Out Damage a Martial Consistently?

[TorgoTheWhite]

Well, at least now I know the "magnetic" attribute would be a reasonable attribute to tack onto a magic 🛡 . Then you can change the action economy of shields with a flavorful and not overpowered magic attribute in regard to the speed of donning and doffing

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm not sold that initiative matters more in 2024 than in 2014.

But the 2024 Alert feat is absolute gold on any kind of control focused caster.

Though high initiative is often a bit overrated in general for most PCs in most combats. As an example in a 1v1 encounter winning initiative is like getting a whole extra turn. in a 4v1 encounter it's most likely the enemy goes somewhere in the middle of team PC - that's on average much less than a full turn advantage on the enemy. And it's skewed even more away from a full turn advantage in a 4v4 encounter (where initiative is rolled separately for all combatants).

I saw it used last night.

Bhaalists with murder aura (vulnerability to piercing damage)and unstoppable.

Casters with hold person got put higher up in initiative. 7 opponents got held.

 

[FrogReaver]

No I mean what I said. When talking about classes and damage I think it is difficult to come up with a generalization that applies "more often than not" in a one-shot and I think it is impossible in a campaign that covers multiple levels.

If you laid down specific assumptions you could perhaps do this effectively, but then it would only apply in those narrow bounds which by their very existence rule out the typical game.

I don't think it's hard one bit.

Truestrike is pretty darn strong with a pistol as an opener in combat. After that it is assumed you close.

Sorry but a single shot before you need to reload for a turn isn't a strong ranged option. There's no reason to assume you could close or even that it would be a good idea to.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a fine idea and helps with your weak ranged options, but it's not a complete solve.

Also A Palding with a Javelin and Divine Smite is pretty strong but an even better option most of the time is Wrathful Smite with a Javelin, although in the Whiteroom it is less DPR.

It's also not very ranged (30 ft), not very sustainable (limited use resource), etc.

At 5th level, not counting Hunter's Mark, not counting Divine smite, not counting Vex, not counting Rage, no counting any subclass ablities .....

Adding all that in doesn't take away the damage you've given up from no offensive fighting style, only a d8 weapon, no damage dealing feat. Assuming level 5 and GWF and GWM that's 2.5+1+3 x2 = 13 Damage per turn before accuracy adjustment.

No it isn't. Even going with a simple Rapier, factoring in a 60% chance and Vex it is higher than that. How much higher depends on the number of foes, the length of combat and the amount of time attacking one foe. The upper limit with a 60% base chance to hit with no advantage and Vex will approach 15 DPR including crits in combat against a single foe for an unlimited number of rounds. Fighting Goblins, yes it will be capped at less, but that 25 hp fireball the Wizard throws on 7hp Goblins will be capped as well.

I'm going to challenge your 15 DPR. A level 5 character with +4 str/dex, a rapier and vex isn't doing 15 DPR. The absolute most I'm getting is 14.3.

Vex d8+4 attacks at base 60% hit rate 5% crit rate. (This is DPR over the given number of attacks, not DPR after them).

2 attacks = 12.0 DPR
4 attacks = 13.0 DPR
6 attacks = 13.4 DPR
infinite attacks = 14.3 DPR

Ultimately you'll typically see closer to 13 IMO.

If you go strict RAW cheese to maximize damage you would go Vex-Nick-Vex with a Shortsword-Scimitar-shortsword while holding a shield. As an alternative a fighter can go Sap-nick-Vex with Longsword-Scimitar-Shortsword and give the bad guy disadvantage on his first attack to boot, way outshining a caster in terms of defense..

I don't agree that's RAW.

These examples are all RAW at 5th level and do not include things like Rage, hunter's Mark, Divine Smite, subclass abilities etc.

But all PC's built with more offensive options get those things as well. There's still a large damage gap there. You've given up a ton of damage to take defensive duelist and use a rapier.

The more relevant question though is whether those abilities being accounted for is enough offense to outperform tanky caster options. Consider a Druid can do 3d10 with moon beam to many enemies every turn. He can also use circle of stars ability to make a d8+4 attack.

That's 13.2 DPR to multiple enemies and an additional 5.3 to a single enemy every turn, while also being able to sit the moonbeam on top of 1 enemy and have them take damage at the start of their turn if they don't move (presumably facing OA's if they do). That's at least 18.5 total single target DPR. If the enemy can't move it can be an additional 13.2 single target. If it can there's the possibility of having to choose between another moonbeam hit and an OA.

The Druid is ranged, has 19 AC to 24 AC with shield spell. I don't think the martial you are describing is doing enough damage to compensate, nor does he have significantly more defense to win on that front. He's less ranged. Etc.

Clerics with Spirit Guardians are similar as well. Thus why I think most martials that don't focus on offense don't compete well against casters.

But if we are speaking in generalities he is going to generally outdamage most full casters in play, whether or not his numbers in the whiteroom are better.

If casters do typical stuff like focus on control instead of damage, then yes. If they focus on damage then I think a cleric and Druid out damage that PC while being just as tanky.

Wizard will be able to with level 4 slots on summon fey. Though they probably are a bit less tanky and quite a bit less reliable given the limited number of those slots, at least for a while.

I think Sorcerer will mostly depend on how one counts AOE damage.

I don't think a bard stands much of a chance in the damage department.

 

[FrogReaver]

I saw it used last night.

Bhaalists with murder aura (vulnerability to piercing damage)and unstoppable.

Casters with hold person got put higher up in initiative. 7 opponents got held.

IMO. What you are describing is 2024 alert mattering more. Not initiative itself.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

I don't think it's hard one bit.


Sorry but a single shot before you need to reload for a turn isn't a strong ranged option. There's no reason to assume you could close or even that it would be a good idea to.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a fine idea and helps with your weak ranged options, but it's not a complete solve.


It's also not very ranged (30 ft), not very sustainable (limited use resource), etc.


Adding all that in doesn't take away the damage you've given up from no offensive fighting style, only a d8 weapon, no damage dealing feat. Assuming level 5 and GWF and GWM that's 2.5+1+3 x2 = 13 Damage per turn before accuracy adjustment.


I'm going to challenge your 15 DPR. A level 5 character with +4 str/dex, a rapier and vex isn't doing 15 DPR. The absolute most I'm getting is 14.3.

Vex d8+4 attacks at base 60% hit rate 5% crit rate. (This is DPR over the given number of attacks, not DPR after them).

2 attacks = 12.0 DPR
4 attacks = 13.0 DPR
6 attacks = 13.4 DPR
infinite attacks = 14.3 DPR

Ultimately you'll typically see closer to 13 IMO.


I don't agree that's RAW.


But all PC's built with more offensive options get those things as well. There's still a large damage gap there. You've given up a ton of damage to take defensive duelist and use a rapier.

The more relevant question though is whether those abilities being accounted for is enough offense to outperform tanky caster options. Consider a Druid can do 3d10 with moon beam to many enemies every turn. He can also use circle of stars ability to make a d8+4 attack.

That's 13.2 DPR to multiple enemies and an additional 5.3 to a single enemy every turn, while also being able to sit the moonbeam on top of 1 enemy and have them take damage at the start of their turn if they don't move (presumably facing OA's if they do). That's at least 18.5 total single target DPR. If the enemy can't move it can be an additional 13.2 single target. If it can there's the possibility of having to choose between another moonbeam hit and an OA.

The Druid is ranged, has 19 AC to 24 AC with shield spell. I don't think the martial you are describing is doing enough damage to compensate, nor does he have significantly more defense to win on that front. He's less ranged. Etc.

Clerics with Spirit Guardians are similar as well. Thus why I think most martials that don't focus on offense don't compete well against casters.


If casters do typical stuff like focus on control instead of damage, then yes. If they focus on damage then I think a cleric and Druid out damage that PC while being just as tanky.

Wizard will be able to with level 4 slots on summon fey. Though they probably are a bit less tanky and quite a bit less reliable given the limited number of those slots, at least for a while.

I think Sorcerer will mostly depend on how one counts AOE damage.

I don't think a bard stands much of a chance in the damage department.

But, when speaking of consistency, how is the same level druid upcasting moonbeam "every turn"? (also moonbeam has no flat attribute modifier). If you are eating up spell slot repeatedly on shield for your "tanky caster" then you are making sortof a nova tank. Where eventually you will be babies bottom soft. For one combat you may be stellar doing this but it doesn't seem to be consistent.

I also think damage dice with flat modifiers a heckalot more consistent than dice without them

 

[ECMO3]

I'm not sold that initiative matters more in 2024 than in 2014.

There are 2 factors that make it more important:

1. Lower Variance on winning and losing initiative - in 2014 you had enemies and allies rolling initiative. Whether or not you went before an enemy was based mostly on two d20 rolls - yours and the enemies. In 2014 monsters have fixed initiatives, so it is usually only based on one roll - yours. This makes the modifiers to your roll more statistically significant.

2. Higher damage and conditions riders: In 2024 each action is more valuable because damage per turn is higher and additionally attacks come with debilitating conditions. An enemy losing initiative to a basic fighter with a Longsword usually means the enemy has disadvantage on his first attack, if the fighter hits 2 bad guys they both have disadvantage, if he action suges and hits 4 it is 4 with disadvantage. Losing initiative to a Rogue often means you are either poisoned or Prone and Slowed. Losing initiative to a Monk with a staff and topple feat usually means the enemy starts his first turn prone and grappled. If you lose initiative to an 11th level fighter with a Longbow who uses action surge and he hits all 6 times it means on your turn you are 50 feet backwards from where you started and with a 20 foot movement (assuming 30 move to start) .... and it could be 60 feet back if he made his first two attacks with darts instead of a Longbow. With a 30 foot movement you could dash and still be further away from the Archer than when you rolled initiative. Some of these things have no saving throw to boot.

Putting these kind of affects in play before the enemies first turn, as part of a standard attack action is a huge advantage in combat.

On the other side it is not as dramatic, but a PC losing initiative to a Pirate has a good chance of starting his turn charmed, losing Initiative to an Assassin (the monster) means you will often mean you start your first turn poisoned with no saving throw.

After the condition effects you have the damage. Winning initiative means 1 more action in combat compared to if you lost and an attack action does more damage now.

 

[Zardnaar]

There are 2 factors that make it more important:

1. Lower Variance in initiative - in 2014 you had enemies and allies rolling initiative. Whether or not you went before an enemy was based mostly on two d20 rolls - yours and the enemies. In 2014 monsters have fixed initiatives, so it is usually only based on one roll - yours. This makes the modifiers to your roll more statistically significant.

2. Higher damage and conditions riders: In 2024 each action is more valuable because damage per turn is higher and additionally attacks come with debilitating conditions. An enemy losing initiative to a basic fighter with a Longsword usually means the enemy has disadvantage on his first attack, if the fighter hits 2 bad guys they both have disadvantage, if he action suges and hits 4 it is 4 with disadvantage. Losing initiative to a Rogue usually means you are poisoned or Prone and Slowed. Losing initiative to a Monk with a staff and topple feat usually means the enemy likely starts his first turn prone and grappled. If you lose initiative to an 11th level fighter with a Longbow who uses action surge and he hits all 6 times it means on your turn you are 50 feet backwards from where you started and with a 20 foot movement (assuming 30 move to start). You could dash and still be further back then when you rolled initiative. With a 30 foot movement you can dash every turn and still not be any closer to the Archer. On the other side a PC losing initiative to a Pirate has a good chance of starting his turn charmed, losing Initiative to an Assassin (the monster) means you will often mean you start your first turn poisoned with no saving throw.

After the condition effects you have the damage. Winning initiative means 1 more action in combat compared to if you lost and an attack action does more damage now.

Turns out assassins have terrible wisdom saves.

 

[Maxperson]

Not at all. Because if the party has a healer, 99% of the time that healer is also a spellcaster, because Mearls & co. danced on the Warlord's grave. Meaning the party has every reason to stop fighting once the spell slots run out and they're functionally out of resources to prevent catastrophic failure.


It's not about ignoring the 24-hour cycle. It's about packing it in. Waiting for a new day rather than taking on new challenges when the biggest resources are already used up...most importantly the healing resources, which are the ones the martial characters need the most because they're in the line of fire for the nastiest attacks.

If the group has hit an encounter so hard it had to nova, it's probably a bad idea to sit in that same spot for as many as 16 hours(depending on when the encounter happened) in order to get the next 8 hours rest.

 

[FrogReaver]

But, when speaking of consistency, how is the same level druid upcasting moonbeam "every turn"?

He's not. But you do have alot of level 2 slots to use a level 2 version as well. It's not as much damage, but it's still comparable to the resourceless damage of the martial we are comparing to. And as you go up a few levels you just keep adding higher level slot uses.

(also moonbeam has no flat attribute modifier).

Sure, but it is save for half damage.

If you are eating up spell slot repeatedly on shield for your "tanky caster" then you are making sortof a nova tank. Where eventually you will be babies bottom soft. For one combat you may be stellar doing this but it doesn't seem to be consistent.

I don't disagree, but with 19 AC, and being ranged how often are you actually needing to use shield to avoid hits though?

Assuming something like 1 attack per turn you need shield 25% of the time on average. That's 2.5 times in a 10 rounds of attacks.

Assuming 2 attacks per turn you need shield 43.75% of the time on average. That's 4.375 times in 10 rounds of attacks.

I also think damage dice with flat modifiers a heckalot more consistent than dice without them

If they were guaranteed hits I might agree. Hit chance is where the inconsistency lies for attack damage and I think that has a much greater impact on consistency than rolling 3 dice. But you are right to not that rolling 3d10 still isn't particularly consistent.

 

[FrogReaver]

If the group has hit an encounter so hard it had to nova, it's probably a bad idea to sit in that same spot for as many as 16 hours(depending on when the encounter happened) in order to get the next 8 hours rest.

Maybe, but it's still a better option than being dead Which is what happens to the party that cannot nova hard enough in that scenario.