D&D 5E Character play vs Player play

Presumably if the players ceased to care and weren't having fun, they would walk out themselves.

Well, maybe. At least one of my players comes from a more structured environment (he occasionally has assumed that certain things are "quest items", and I've had to make a point of the fact that I don't give quests) so I've learned to deliberately cap scenes that aren't going anywhere as a social signal to the player that it's okay to move on--there are no expectations that he continue the dialogue/investigation/interaction/whatever. Early on I didn't do this and I think it caused him some frustration. Naturally a player who is more used to sandboxes wouldn't need that kind of narration, he would know to just say, "Okay, we're done here. I say goodbye and go home."

The only thing that would prevent that is if they feared some in-game consequence if they failed to solve the mystery quickly.

There are always in-game consequences to everything, but so far my players don't seem particularly afraid of ignoring things for extended periods.

Are you saying:

1. You were sensing they weren't having fun in a dangerous-immediate-consequence-free situation and so just kind of said what they were already thinking (nudging only in the most technical sense. They were about to give up anyway.)

Or...

2. There was originally a consequence for not solving the mystery but you removed it because they weren't having fun.

or...

3. Some other thing?

#3. I think I've covered this already above but let me know if it's still unclear.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Naturally a player who is more used to sandboxes wouldn't need that kind of narration, he would know to just say, "Okay, we're done here. I say goodbye and go home."

Makes sense. I'd suggest it's kind of a harmless nudge made necessary only by the players' sort of training.

But I think I understand what you meant.
 

Makes sense. I'd suggest it's kind of a harmless nudge made necessary only by the players' sort of training.

But I think I understand what you meant.

I agree that it's a nudge to the player. That's why I kept referring to your article's definition of "nudge" as a type of choker, which is based on nudges to the character. It's an important distinction.

There have been occasions (well, one occasion that I can think of) where I did nudge the PC directly. He was searching for a specific treasure cache in a certain location, and not seeing it. It got to the point where he was asking, "Okay, do I find anything else interesting?" and I would repeat, "Nope, just the altar on the roof." Eventually I just told him, "Just look at the altar!" which got him on the right track to what he was looking for. I consider that a failure on my part--apparently I wasn't telegraphing something correctly. Players are totally reliant on you to be their eyes and ears in the game world so I'd rather err on the side of giving them more information than less--but it would have been nice if I'd known a better way of signalling that "you've only glanced at this unusual-looking object, closer examination might reveal more details". I'm still pretty new to DMing and I'm learning as I go.
 

I agree that it's a nudge to the player. That's why I kept referring to your article's definition of "nudge" as a type of choker, which is based on nudges to the character. It's an important distinction.

There have been occasions (well, one occasion that I can think of) where I did nudge the PC directly. He was searching for a specific treasure cache in a certain location, and not seeing it. It got to the point where he was asking, "Okay, do I find anything else interesting?" and I would repeat, "Nope, just the altar on the roof." Eventually I just told him, "Just look at the altar!" which got him on the right track to what he was looking for. I consider that a failure on my part--apparently I wasn't telegraphing something correctly. Players are totally reliant on you to be their eyes and ears in the game world so I'd rather err on the side of giving them more information than less--but it would have been nice if I'd known a better way of signalling that "you've only glanced at this unusual-looking object, closer examination might reveal more details". I'm still pretty new to DMing and I'm learning as I go.

No GM ever manages to do the best possible thing every time.

The thing is just -- when you say something that you later realize you could've done more elegantly or while preserving more player choice while still keeping it exciting -- to note it and realize it and see if you can't do it better later.
 

I've had to make a point of the fact that I don't give quests)
I'm curious about this. Isn't pretty much anything the PCs are asked to do by anyone a "quest"? If the bartender says "Hey, could you clean my pantry? I'll give you 5 silver", it's technically a quest.

I'm not sure how an entire campaign could avoid having any quests at all unless the DM refused to have any agency in the game at all. Doesn't this reduce the DM to a living computer whose only job it is to say "Yes" to everything all the time without any thinking or opinions?

I'm positive that I could never enjoy DMing a game like that. The closest I came to playing a game like that was one session of a game where the DM gave us a quest but then gave us a day to do whatever we wanted to and then just ran that day as a sandbox. One of the players insisted on hearing a detailed description of every woman in a bar so he could choose which ones to hit on. He then wanted to know everything about them so he could decide if his character liked them. Meanwhile another player spent an endless amount of time beating people in the bar at darts. He wanted to roll to see how well he was doing with each dart throw as well as how much money he was making from betting. Meanwhile, I said "Uh, my character drinks for the evening then goes to bed early since we are leaving on the quest tomorrow morning and I want to be well rested." Then I had to watch them hit on women and throw darts for another 3 hours of real time.

It was then that I resolved that without a DM taking a more heavy hand in moving the game towards the interesting parts(the parts where there are mysteries to solve, bad guys to beat, and challenges to overcome), D&D is not actually a fun game.

There are always in-game consequences to everything, but so far my players don't seem particularly afraid of ignoring things for extended periods.
In most of my games ignoring things for extended periods of time causes entire cities to be burned to the ground by evil cultists or the world explodes. The situation is always life and death. Sitting around doing nothing gets you and everyone around you killed. Which is why if I narrated that they were done for the day, someone would get very angry at me if they didn't solve the mystery in time.
 

Isn't this the essence of virtually ALL mystery stories though?

Take for example: A murdered body is found. Who did it? The knife has a symbol that incriminates one person. But that person has no motive. Someone else really doesn't like the victim and has reason to see them dead. But they couldn't have done it, they were spotted across the house at the same time the murder took place. The clues don't seem to add up.

Then, one of the people involved messes up and changes part of their story. They said they were looking out the window but somehow they also saw someone else run out of the room on the opposite direction. Obviously, he is lying. Now that we know someone is lying, we know it is probably them.

But until that slip up happens, there's no real way to solve the mystery. There is just not enough information. The author of the story decides on just the right moment to reveal that last critical piece of information to let the reader or the watcher figure out the mystery. Then, the reader/watcher gets to put 2 and 2 together, come up with the answer and feel good about themselves because they solved the mystery just before someone in the story also solves it.

But the mystery IS unsolvable until the author decides to allow you to solve it. I see this as precisely the same thing. You get the final piece of information to figure out that she is a succubus at just the right dramatic timing.

You are right on the money about mystery stories. I'm talking about game play which has about as much in common with a story as a weasel does with the tarrasque. In a role playing game my character isn't doing stuff at the whim of dramatic appropriateness. Taken to the logical conclusion why bother trying to do ANYTHING. If it isn't dramatically appropriate for you to do then it ain't happening so just write he story and be done with it. During actual play I like to play the character as if it were actually in the setting and take action based on what makes sense in the setting and in the situation. Waiting around with thumb firmly up backside until some narrative convention "allows" activity to take place is for the birds.


This is a spoiler for the rest of this adventure but it's pretty old and designed for the playtest, so I'm willing to risk it. The adventure is Scourge of the Sword Coast.

So, the adventure in question sends you off to deal with the goblins not entirely just to give you levels. It's because the fact that there is a succubus there is only the tip of the iceberg. The goblins have attacked the village because they are working for Red Wizards in the mountains nearby. The succubus works for them as well. They want to get a hold of an artifact that was located in Daggerford. The Duke of Daggerford appears to have lost it. It was actually stolen by the succubus. She wants to sew chaos inside the city so that no one in the city will come looking for their base in the mountains. The Duke blames Sir Isteval for the theft because a friend of his was asking about the artifact. Sir Isteval is a powerful Paladin and likely a threat to their operation and now he is scouring the countryside looking for the missing artifact.

The Red Wizards are working with a demon that has no body so he is just a disembodied spirit. The Red Wizards said they could give him form again if he helped them. So he has been possessing Orcs and Goblins and convincing entire tribes to attack nearby villages in order to cause more problems so that the Red Wizards have time to finish the portal they are creating.

So, the PCs are asked to go investigate the nearby village for a number of reasons: To clue them in that something bigger is going on than just one murder, to have a chance to figure out that the goblins are working with the Red Wizards, to distract them from mindlessly searching for clues that can't be found within Daggerford, and also to give them some needed experience to be able to take on the larger challenges of the succubus and the more powerful creatures in the Red Wizard base in the mountains when they have to fight them eventually.

How will discovering the nature of the succubus early on ruin anything? If the PCs correctly identify her nature then they can warn the authorities about her and prompt them to keep tabs on her while they go and deal with other things. Are there any clues or information that that the goblin's activity is abnormal in any way? If witnesses to the attacks claim that the goblins appeared to driven by some mad unholy force then they would be interesting enough to check out. I think that is preferable to artificially blocking player efforts mechanically just to steer game play toward some narrative goal.
 

Which is why I'm not a fan of sandboxes in general since it feels like a bunch of random unconnected events that don't have any relation to one another. Also, it feels like the DM didn't put any effort into making a story. Instead, the work of creating a story has been offloaded to the players.

Ummmm........well YEAH!!! That is kind of the whole point. Any stories that emerge from play are the PLAYERS stories. Events in a campaign absent a DM's story don't have to be random or unconnected. There can be things going on that affect other things and the players could get tangled up in any number of them. What they get mixed up in and how is up to them though. If a story already has a beginning, a middle, and end all worked out there really isn't a need to play it out because we know how the story ends. I don't want live game play to feel like watching a movie that everyone has already seen.
 

@Majoru_Oakheart: I have found that successful sandbox games rely on players who have characters with goals, who act in a proactive fashion to achieve those goals, and a DM that presents a dynamic, changing setting with lots going on, who puts genre-appropriate challenges in between the characters and their goals. Further, all parties at the table are clear on the goals of play - having a fun time and creating an exciting, memorable story as a result of play - and pursue them relentlessly.

Without a commitment to these principles, a sandbox can quickly turn into a quagmire of boredom and frustration in my experience.
 

If it's supposed to be a puzzle for the player, then it should be based on player ability; the succubus shouldn't be able to weasel out of suspicion with just a die roll. If it's supposed to hinge on in-game character ability, then the character should also be allowed to figure out the puzzle in the first place, since the game mechanic is what is used in defense.
I think there ARE ways to solve this puzzle immediately. Some of them are listed above. A Paladin would be able to detect her as a fiend. If you suspected her and snuck into her room, you could probably find evidence pointing toward her. If you ask very pointed questions of people at the bar, you'd probably be able to guess. The PCs weren't given enough information to clue them into doing those things. They just knew someone was jealous of the succubus for stealing the man she loved. And the jealous woman was kind of obsessive so they were suspecting her.

However, I think the puzzle challenges both player and character simultaneously. The character's skills and abilities give the player options. If you are playing a Paladin, you can find out more information than if you aren't. But you aren't required to be a Paladin to sneak into her room at night or ask questions. But it's a lot simpler to say "Is that woman a fiend?"

As I say earlier in this thread, I view the character as the player's window into the game. You abilities can let you gather more or less information but then it's up to the player to use that information to solve the problem. But the player's skill at playing the game helps him get that information as well. If the player is smart, they think to use the Detect Evil ability on the right person. If they aren't, they don't.

Some groups will solve it easily. Some will need more clues. I'm perfectly ok with that. It rewards good playing and smart character creation.

Whenever I encounter plot device solution blocking as a player then its easy to just stop caring about it and go do something else. Come back to it later? Maybe if there isn't better loot somewhere else.
I guess it depends what you consider a "plot device". Everything you don't currently know is hidden behind a plot device. You don't know the currently location of Elminster but that's because your character doesn't have the ability to find that information. Not every group will be able to solve every problem. Some not at all, and some not in the same way.

True I suppose. But, by the same token, that's kind of a dick move by the player. The DM drops the scenario in front of you, it's not unreasonable for the DM to expect that you'll try to resolve the scenario. Simply picking up and leaving isn't always an option either- after all, what do you do when the other four players engage in the mystery? Sulk in the corner? It is a group game after all.
It is interesting to note that in this adventure the player in question got angry precisely because the rest of the group DID give up on the mystery. They all looked at each other and said "Well, we talked to everyone. I have no idea who might have done this. I don't think anyone else is going to give us any more information. I think we're at a dead end. We have another problem to worry about: The missing artifact that we are also supposed to find, maybe we should concentrate on that for a while and come back to this."

He got really angry because he wasn't about to give up on this problem. There had to be a solution. He was putting in the effort to solve it and had no idea why they'd just give up.

Ironically enough, he said there had to be a solution due to metagaming reasons. He said that I was running a written adventure and although it was realistic in real life to run into mysteries they couldn't solve, this was D&D. There was ALWAYS a solution to the problem and it was always accomplish-able by the players because it isn't fun to run into a problem you can't solve. So, of COURSE the authors wrote in a solution and he was going to look until he found it.

The rest of them shrugged and said "Maybe our characters aren't perceptive enough to pick up on the clues. That's what we get for playing characters who are poor at Perception and social skills".

Personally, if I'm going to tangle with a succubus, I'd prefer to find out that "Oh, that's why Jim Begoni killed himself! His girlfriend was a succubus all along, and if we'd thought to have the paladin Detect Evil on every NPC we encounter we would have picked up on it sooner" instead of "A succubus lunges at you from the open crypt. Roll for initiative." I likewise plant high-level threats for my PCs in the story long before I activate them. They still don't know about the Rakshasa in the palace...
Yes. This exactly. I'd much prefer there to be some forewarning and foreshadowing, even if our particular characters failed to pick up on the nuances. That way we can say "RIGHT! That's what those clues were trying to say. Stupid us, if we'd been a bit smarter we would have been better prepared for this encounter."

Edit: however, the one thing I would do for a threat that isn't intended to be engaged directly is prevent the players from spending too much time on it. Tell them about the murder, let them interview the girlfriend and the girl who is jealous of the girlfriend (paladin can come into play here), but after ten or twenty minutes just say, "Over the course of the afternoon, you wrack your brains to come up with a new lead or a new angle on the problem, but nothing comes to mind and you're afraid you might have to file this under Unsolved Mysteries for now. As the shadows grow dark, you're about to head home for the night when suddenly a messenger bursts into your office, shouting, 'An army of giants is approaching the city!'" in order to signal to the players (not the PCs) that the "murder scene" is closed.
As a side note, I did this. I told them that it appeared that they were at a dead end. He refused to acknowledge that and insisted on talking to more people. I let him try to get more information from a couple of people they interviewed and he failed. Then I tried to move on again and move to the next scene where someone told them about the goblin attack. But he insisted that he wasn't going to give up. Then I stepped out of character and said "Look, you're just going to hold up the game. You've got pretty much all the information you're going to get. You might want to give up on this and come back to it later."

That's what caused the argument that caused me to stop DMing. He insisted that there should be a solution readily available and I should tell him what it is now. I should name a skill and he should be able to roll it and solve the whole thing. I told him that wasn't possible as the information he was looking for wasn't really available to solve the puzzle at the moment but that maybe the information would present itself later if he just gave it a rest for now.

He got up from the table, threw some objects around and said he wasn't playing anymore.
 

@Majoru_Oakheart: I have found that successful sandbox games rely on players who have characters with goals, who act in a proactive fashion to achieve those goals, and a DM that presents a dynamic, changing setting with lots going on, who puts genre-appropriate challenges in between the characters and their goals. Further, all parties at the table are clear on the goals of play - having a fun time and creating an exciting, memorable story as a result of play - and pursue them relentlessly.

Without a commitment to these principles, a sandbox can quickly turn into a quagmire of boredom and frustration in my experience.

Which is the point I was trying to make way upthread when I said that [MENTION=6787650]emdw45[/MENTION]'s game wasn't what I think of when I think of sandbox. Since everything he talked about was DM generated, and nothing he mentioned was player generated, it doesn't look like a sandbox to me. I consider player agency to be the hallmark of a sandbox. Judging with the sliver of information I have about his campaign, I'd call Emdw45's game a linear game with a lot of lines. And since those DM generated plots will directly impact the PC's, the players don't really have the option of ignoring them and going off to do their own thing. They have to deal with those DM generated plots or very bad things will happen to the game world.

My best description would be a linear campaign made up of a number of linear (since they're time based, they have to be linear) plots running in parallel. Cool idea and probably a lot of fun. Certainly a ton of work has gone into it. But, not what I would call a sandbox.
 

Remove ads

Top