Close Quarters Fighting (General Feat)

[Mr.Binx]

I have an issue with the Close Quarters Fighting feat listed in Sword & Fist (page 5). The feat text states, "...any damage that you inflict with a successful attack of opportunity provoked by the grapple attempt is added to your ensuing grapple check to avoid being grappled." However, in the Player's Handbook (page 137) it states, "You provoke an attack of opportunity from the opponent you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals you damage, you fail to start the grapple." The other benefits of Close Quarters Fighting are quite nice, but I don't see how you can make a grapple check with a bonus equal to you a AoO damage if the grapple has already been disrupted by the AoO damage. There is currently no entry for this feat in the official WotC Sword & Fist errata on the WotC website and I was wondering if someone has seen any other info regarding this inconsistency.

 

[kreynolds]

The feat can be a life saver against creatures with Improved Grab. That's the part you're missing.

 

[Mr.Binx]

I am completey aware of how useful it is in that respect. The ability to avoid a monsters improved grapple attacks, alone, allows the feat to stand on it's own. My main query is why would they add an additional benefit that really isn't a benefit and then exclude it from the errata.

 

[kreynolds]

My main query is why would they add an additional benefit that really isn't a benefit and then exclude it from the errata.

Because it is an additional benefit. When a creature with Improved Grab starts a grapple with you, you don't get an AoO, because the ability doesn't provoke one, thus you can't interupt his grapple attempt, thus you're screwed. This feat gives you a fighting chance.

As far as the feat and normal grapples, they don't need to put that info in because this feat doesn't change how they work. I suppose they were trying to save space by not restating the rules over and over (even though they did that throughout F&P).

 

[jontherev]

The feat can be a life saver against creatures with Improved Grab. That's the part you're missing.

Not a bad feat, but it doesn't help against that second bear claw, or the third (or fourth) from the Lava Child coming in to flank you.

They should have an Improved CQF feat with Combat Reflexes as a prereq. that allows you to make use of the feat as many times per round as you have AoO's left. Either that, or just add CR as a prereq. to the original feat and let it do it. Just my 2 cents.

 

[kreynolds]

They should have an Improved CQF feat with Combat Reflexes as a prereq. that allows you to make use of the feat as many times per round as you have AoO's left.

Close-Quarters Fighting already does that, bubba.

 

[Mr.Binx]

Because it is an additional benefit. When a creature with Improved Grab starts a grapple with you, you don't get an AoO, because the ability doesn't provoke one, thus you can't interupt his grapple attempt...

Close Quarters Fighting allows you an AoO versus the Improved Grab monster ability. Therefore the grappling monster would be provoking an AoO. The PHB says (already previously stated) under grappling "...any damage that you inflict with a successful attack of opportunity provoked by the grapple attempt is added to your ensuing grapple check to avoid being grappled."

 

[kreynolds]

Close Quarters Fighting allows you an AoO versus the Improved Grab monster ability. Therefore the grappling monster would be provoking an AoO. The PHB says (already previously stated) under grappling "...any damage that you inflict with a successful attack of opportunity provoked by the grapple attempt is added to your ensuing grapple check to avoid being grappled."

OK. Let me try explaining this another way...

Creatures with Improved Grab do not provoke an attack of opportunity when starting a grapple.

This feat grants you the AoO that you would normally not be entitled to. Futhermore, simply causing damage to a creature with Improved Grab does not automatically cause the creature to fail the grapple check.

EDIT: OK. Now I'm not sure what it is that you're asking. Try again.

 

[Mr.Binx]

Typing something I am already aware of in really big letters, Mr.Reynolds, does nothing other than imply to me that you think I am stupid. Sir, I am well aware of the fact that the improved grab ability causes an antagonist's grapple attempts to not provoke an AoO. Close Quarters Fighting negates that benefit and notes that you do gain an attack of opportunity against opponents with the Improved Grab ability. Therefore, if you have Improved Grab and attempt a grapple against someone with the Close Quarters Fighting feat then your grapple attempt provokes an attack of opportunity. The PHB notes, under grappling, that when you make a successful AoO against your opponent which was caused by a grappling attempt and do damage then said grappling attempt fails. Do you understand why I am confused by this feat?

 

[kreynolds]

Typing something I am already aware of in really big letters, Mr.Reynolds, does nothing other than imply to me that you think I am stupid.

For the record, I didn't imply a damn thing. You assumed, which is very different. It served to get your attention, and it served it's purpose.

Do you understand why I am confused by this feat?

No. But then again, I don't understand why dogs eat cat turds either. (just kidding)

Creatures with Improved Grab are not subject to the standard grappling rules, which is why they damn near get their own. Read the description of Improved Grab in the MM. It might better explain this.