Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[ravenight]

You make two attacks against a single target. If you're wielding a light blade, spear, or flail, you get to make an additional attack (note that it doesn't say two attacks in the secondary attack section, like it does in the primary attack section) against the same (or a different) target.

Except you can actually take up to 4 attacks, assuming you hit with both initial attacks. see below.

Primary Target: One creature
Primary Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks

One target, two attacks. Clear as day.

Weapon: If you’re wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make a secondary attack.

If you're using a particular weapon, you get the secondary attack. Clear as day.

The "weapon" section of a power description modifies the immediately preceding "hit" "miss" or "effect" section (see silverstep for example). Therefore, the weapon section of Rain of Blows is a part of the "hit" section, which is applied each time the character hits with an attack roll indicated by the "Primary Attack" section. Thus, for each hit, someone with a light blade, spear or flail and at least 15 Dex gets a secondary attack.

The only reason anyone argues about this is because people think it is overpowered. It isn't unclear at all. If the power allowed two attacks against any targets (like twin strike does) and said "Weapon: If you're wielding a mancatcher, the target is immobilized", no one would argue that you only get to immobilize one target.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

Did you read my example earlier in the thread? How will you be handling it when the first target is hit by an attack and a minion wanders into the zone created by the attack? It is then preceded by a hit. Or with things such as firewall or cloudkill that create a larger zone that deals automatic damage.

Since neither "Firewall" or "Cloud Kill" require a to hit for them to function they are covered under the likes of the Paladins "Divine Challenge"

Now if a Minion was stupid enough to walk into the one square that had the "Cloud of Daggers" in it after it has been in place then I dont see why it would not take the damage. I just would not give the damage to a Minion that was targeted and remained in the square.

 

[ravenight]

That the power has an "Effect" which deals damage does not make it "an attack that would normally deal damage on a miss". In fact, it normally does not deal damage on a miss, it simply leaves behind a zone (regardless of whether any attack rolls hit, miss, or are even rolled), which happens to deal damage without an attack roll. The rules explicitly say that minions are subject to damage of that sort, so they die to CoD.

 

[SadisticFishing]

You people are reading the wrong thing.

A MISSED ATTACK NEVER KILLS A MINION.

Period, point finale. The Cloud of Knives is an attack. If it misses, it is a missed attack. If it is a missed attack, the "Effect" entry is "damage from a missed attack", as it is Cloud of Knives, which is a missed attack. Minions are immune to damage from missed attacks. Hence, minions are immune to the Effect of a missed Cloud of Knives.

It's simple logic, reading it exactly as it's worded.

So, if I cast Spiritual Weapon and miss with the first attack, then since it's a missed attack, I can't kill minions with it in subsequent rounds, no matter how long I sustain the power?

Like I said, yes. As soon as it "hits", it stopped being a "missed" attack, as a "missed" attack is defined as "an attack that does not hit".

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

Since neither "Firewall" or "Cloud Kill" require a to hit for them to function they are covered under the likes of the Paladins "Divine Challenge"

Now if a Minion was stupid enough to walk into the one square that had the "Cloud of Daggers" in it after it has been in place then I dont see why it would not take the damage. I just would not give the damage to a Minion that was targeted and remained in the square.

Cloudkill and Cloud of Daggers work IDENTICALLY. Both target an area, attack all enemies in that area for the "Hit" damage, and both leave an Effect(a zone) that deals automatic damage to enemies that start their turn in the area or enter the area. Even the wording is the same. One just has a sustain, deals more damage and has a larger area (which is why its not at will).

You people are reading the wrong thing.

A MISSED ATTACK NEVER KILLS A MINION.

Period, point finale. The Cloud of Knives is an attack. If it misses, it is a missed attack. If it is a missed attack, the "Effect" entry is "damage from a missed attack", as it is Cloud of Knives, which is a missed attack. Minions are immune to damage from missed attacks. Hence, minions are immune to the Effect of a missed Cloud of Knives.

It's simple logic, reading it exactly as it's worded.



Like I said, yes. As soon as it "hits", it stopped being a "missed" attack, as a "missed" attack is defined as "an attack that does not hit".

Once again, an effect is not an attack. There are powers with attacks, powers with attacks and effects, and powers with just effects.

Please respond to how you will be running the example where cloud of daggers is used to attack an empty square, or succesfully hits and a minion wanders in. There is no non-absurd answer.

 

[Mort_Q]

You people are reading the wrong thing.

A MISSED ATTACK NEVER KILLS A MINION.

But that's not what it says.

It says: ... if a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage.

It doesn't take damage from the miss. Fine. It still, however, takes damage from the effect if it's still in the zone at the start of its turn.

 

[SadisticFishing]

The minion dies. Because then the Cloud of Knives is not a missed attack.

This doesn't seem to make sense, but VERY LITTLE about minions does. This is easily fixed, too, as "a minion will not willingly take damage for the team, but standing in the cloud of knives and the taking 3 damage is not enough to make it run away". Because that's what minions are.

But that's not what it says.

It says: ... if a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage.

It doesn't take damage from the miss. Fine. It still, however, takes damage from the effect if it's still in the zone at the start of its turn.

That's not what every minion says though. Specific beats general.

 

[Switchback]

It's not the 'miss' that is killing him. It's the auto damage "Hit" that begins on the start of his next turn for that square.

Using your logic that same minion could endlessly tramp back and forth through that square on his turn, ignoring the knives that no other creature in the game ignores, and not take damage.

This isn't that hard.

 

[Caliban]

You people are reading the wrong thing.

I think we disagree on that point.

A MISSED ATTACK NEVER KILLS A MINION.

Period, point finale.

You are defining "attack" far to broadly. No period. no point finale. Sorry.

The Cloud of Knives is an attack. If it misses, it is a missed attack. If it is a missed attack, the "Effect" entry is "damage from a missed attack", as it is Cloud of Knives, which is a missed attack.

And this is where we disagree with you. Cloud of Knives is a power. It is a power that includes and atttack and an effect. If the attack misses, it does no damage (to anyone, minion or otherwise in this case).

The effect doesn't care whether the attack misses or not, and neither do the minions. They take damage because there is no attack involved in the damage caused by the effect zone.

 

[SadisticFishing]

It is an Attack Power. Hence, it is an attack. Are you saying that the attack powers that don't have an attack (Wall of Fire) are not attacks? Of course they are.

It's not the 'miss' that is killing him. It's the auto damage "Hit" that begins on the start of his next turn for that square.

Using your logic that same minion could endlessly tramp back and forth through that square on his turn, ignoring the knives that no other creature in the game ignores, and not take damage.

This isn't that hard.

That's absolutely allowed, by RAW. Who cares? No minion is going to do that.