Complete Mage - Is it out yet?

[Twowolves]

"Weak but enduring combat resources" as reserve feats seem to be largely balanced by opportunity cost. Sure, it's nice to pump out effects during combat and not lose any resources over it. But it will take you multiple rounds to do as much damage with fiery bursts as you could do with the one fireball you have in reserve to power them. In the time that is happening, your party (and potentially you) are taking damage from the foes you haven't slain because of it.

So, you admit, these feats will skew the CR system? Taking multiple rounds to do potentially unlimited damage is not as balancing as some claim. A flying mage with one of these feats can go aloft, and unless the enemy has ranged, they are eventually screwed. Yes, the damage output per round is less, but the total damage output is off the scale. How many low CR fights can you have per day now? Without question the answer is "more", and that forces the game into a different direction.

Wizards already had a way to pump out effects during combat, wands and scrolls. These required a feat too (or else twice as much of another resource, gold), and they had limits. Charges were a limit, as was the fact they could be disarmed or stolen. One NPC with one of these zappy feats can kill hundreds of civillians in a city, and when the watch shows up to stop him, he's still got his full allotment of spells. Teleport away and do it again tomorrow. With no resource limit, one character can eventually kill all the peons in a nation, without fear of being caught with his mystic pants down.

Seriously, Magic Missile (other than being a force effect) becomes useless, so long as one of a character's highest level spells is uncast. At 9th level, a zappy feat does 5d6 at will, a Magic Missile will do 10-25 once, and from there it just gets worse.

 

[BryonD]

You're still missing the whole opportunity cost thing.

 

[Twowolves]

You're still missing the whole opportunity cost thing.

No, I'm not missing it. I am saying it's not as balancing as everyone says it is. The feats change how the players will approach combats in play, and push the flavor of the game in a certain direction, especially at mid levels. I'm fully aware that the greatest resource a character has at higher levels is their number of actions. I just firmly believe that these feats will become "must have" feats in any game that allows them, and that they will completely change the way the game is played.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm pretty sure Fly is something that has been around in D&D long enough for the CR system to adapt to.

And Borne Aloft doesn't let a wizard stay up in the air indefinitely. You have to be on ground at the beginning and end of each round.

 

[Twowolves]

I'm pretty sure Fly is something that has been around in D&D long enough for the CR system to adapt to.

And Borne Aloft doesn't let a wizard stay up in the air indefinitely. You have to be on ground at the beginning and end of each round.

I take it "Borne Aloft" is another reserve feat?

Fly has been around, yes. Notice that in 3.5 they cut the duration down, limiting the air superiority role of a wizard. Now factor in the fact that the wizard will run out of Fly spells before he runs out of damage output and see if that doesn't skew the overall challenge.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I take it "Borne Aloft" is another reserve feat?

That's the one I assumed you were refering to that allowed a mage to fly with impugnity. It's only good for aerial hops, not flight, though.

Fly has been around, yes. Notice that in 3.5 they cut the duration down, limiting the air superiority role of a wizard. Now factor in the fact that the wizard will run out of Fly spells before he runs out of damage output and see if that doesn't skew the overall challenge.

Well, this is assuming the world is full of NPCs stupider than barnyard animals, I guess. Confronted with aerial superiority, I think most city residents would, at a guess, go inside and close their shutters.

This allows the mage to freely urinate on their homes, but that's really about it.

 

[ruleslawyer]

No, you are misquoting me. d20dwarf said that D&D wasn't literature. I said it was based on literature. Peroid. You asked for an example of how D&D was like Conan or LotR. Not once was the specifics of the magic system involved in this particular part of the thread.

Being based in fantasy literature is still different from being fantasy literature. It's a game, not a story, which is the point he was making. The point that I was making, as was BryonD, is that D&D's mechanics were no more a reflection of S&S or classic fantasy in 1e than they are now.

So now your point is that the original magic system wasn't like the magic seen in Howard or Tolkien's books, when everyone already said it came from Jack Vance? So what?

Actually, that was the point to begin with; no one's changing their arguments except you. Moreover, 1e's mechanics aren't even as precise an adaptation of Vance's mechanics as would be a system that has a mix of fire-and-forget effects and constant effects.

The original magic system was more like one of the sources of inspiration than any of the others. The 1st ed ranger was Aragorn, period, straight down to the fact that they could use crsytal balls, aka pallantirs. Regenerating, fire-loathing trolls came straight from Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions". I have clearly shown how 1st ed D&D was based on the works of a handful of authors, and that's what you asked for. Next time ask for examples of how the magic system is the same, instead how the entire game is the same.

That last bit is completely missing the point, which can be restated (*again*; sigh) in the face of this kind of obtuseness as follows:

Reserve feats, and all the other details that you decry as "video-gamey," are no less true to D&D's literary inspirations than are the fire-and-forget system.

That was the point that I made, and that BryonD made, and that you're simply choosing to ignore in favor of raising a huge army of strawmen.

 

[Psion]

So, you admit, these feats will skew the CR system?

I said nothing of the sort.

What I did imply is that it has the potential to change the flow of dungeon adventures. But from where I am sitting, not in a bad way.

If for you, the way it changes it is somehow bad, then I recommend you not allow the feat in your game. Just like any other.

For me, I recall playing my illusionist in the original adventure path, trying to stretch my character's endurance to the limit by expending scrolls and suchnot, and being morphed to a second rate crossbowman by that vagaries of the rules. That's an element of the game I don't feel essential. Any party will exhaust from HP and spell slot loss at any rate, I'm not exactly fond of the arcane casters being the "weakest link" in this regard.

Taking multiple rounds to do potentially unlimited damage is not as balancing as some claim.

Then fighters are clearly overpowered compared to sorcerers.

A flying mage with one of these feats can go aloft, and unless the enemy has ranged, they are eventually screwed.

So, I see you are trying these rules in absentia and a priori. The character must begin and end their move on stable ground. Unless the wizard has a precipice somehow unreachable by the fighter, it's not going to make them immune to attack.

And then, you assume the character will not have ranged. Most characters that rely on combat as a resource will have access to ranged weapons.

Wizards already had a way to pump out effects during combat, wands and scrolls. These required a feat too

Wizards get scribe scroll for free. And scrolls and wands don't go away if you "tap out" early.

(or else twice as much of another resource, gold),

There are other feats that save you gold. Like item creation feats you were just talking about.

Seriously, Magic Missile (other than being a force effect) becomes useless, so long as one of a character's highest level spells is uncast. At 9th level, a zappy feat does 5d6 at will, a Magic Missile will do 10-25 once, and from there it just gets worse.

Then don't memorize magic missile, or have your sorcerer trade it out.

 

[Psion]

I take it "Borne Aloft" is another reserve feat?

Fly has been around, yes. Notice that in 3.5 they cut the duration down, limiting the air superiority role of a wizard. Now factor in the fact that the wizard will run out of Fly spells before he runs out of damage output and see if that doesn't skew the overall challenge.

Incorrect. They cut the duration of fly to prevent the early impact to overland travel. Borne aloft doesn't get around that. You have to begin and end you move on the ground.

 

[BryonD]

You've gone from it is a paradigm shift to it isn't balanced without really offering a decent case to establish either point.

Thanks, but I don't see any point in going on unless something with a bit more substance comes along.


Anyway, I'll still say I think this is one of WotC's best books in a while.