Complete Mage - Is it out yet?

[Amazing Triangle]

Finally, I note that not one single supporter of these reserve feats will answer this question: In a game where these feats are available, do you believe they will become "must have" feats, where greater than 2/3 of the people who can take one will?

I support their use. No. I like it for Warrior/Wizard or straight Wizard builds or maybe Wujen. So that is 1/5 possible characters who can do. (No Sorcerer, No Cleric, No Druid, No Favored Soul, No Warmage, No Spellthief, No Shugenja, No Spirit Shaman)

 

[Twowolves]

May I, this argument seems to be about whether you want reserve feats in 4th edition. Because if this were an argument about whether or not to use reserve feats, it seems silly. All books beyond Core (PHB) are optional. So if you don't like it don't use it. Now if it is power balance you are worried about don't use the book. If reserve feats become standard in 4e, don't play, change games, or keep playing 3.5e.

Like I said, I personally don't like it, and am afraid that it will be the norm for 4th ed. I won't be using this book now, and if these feats are in the core rulebook in 4th ed, I won't play that either. Saying "don't like it, don't play it" isn't a discussion about the merits of the feats, it's a "take your ball and go home" answer.

As for the direction that the wizard is going in it is like the fighter. Do you want fighter feats to have a daily limit?

Ah, but the fighter can't disintegrate anything, teleport anywhere, summon elementals, fly, etc etc etc. The wizard gets his cake and eats it too.

 

[Pielorinho]

And maybe YOU ought to learn to read.

Twowolves, please read my note above VERY carefully, and edit this post accordingly.

Daniel

 

[Psion]

First: I wasn't talking about the Borne Aloft feat, as I didn't even know it existed.

Sorry, then I missed your meaning about air superiority in this context. Just what did you mean, then?

Secondly: do you have a quote from the designers to back up that it changed to stop overland travel?

I recall it being mentioned, but not where... it might have been on the WotC boards, here, or Andy Collins' boards.

Assuming a wizard won't use spells to tilt a battle in his favor, and will instead stand toe to toe with a melee machine is somehow unfair in a comparison?

I don't think he'd go toe to toe. I just didn't think borne aloft would make him invincible. But as it appears that's not what you were getting at, nevermind.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. Even though wizards get the feat for free, they still have to pay gold and xp to scribe a scroll, and the scroll goes away when read. Before, you had to lose something (a charge, a scroll, a potion) to get an effect, now you don't.

What item creation feats get you, other than choice, is a cost break on magic items. Given the "rate of exchange" for xp, you only end up paying 70% of the total item cost to create an item. So, in short, what I am getting at is that obviating gp costs is fair game for the capabilities of a feat.

So, when I postulate that these feats give an unlimited ability better than a limited use first level spell, your answer is to get rid of the spell? That's ok?

There are many spells that are good at low level, but not effective at higher level. If I took sleep at lower level, it would certainly be on the chopping block of spells I trade out/never memorize at higher level.

So, yes, I do beleive it is ok.

Edit: And that said, I'm not really sure if I would give up magic missile. It's range and surefire damage still make it a credible choice.

 

[Twowolves]

We've introduced them into two separate campaigns so far, and so far the results are:

Wait, the book has been out for a week, and you've run two campaigns with it?

I support their use. No. I like it for Warrior/Wizard or straight Wizard builds or maybe Wujen. So that is 1/5 possible characters who can do. (No Sorcerer, No Cleric, No Druid, No Favored Soul, No Warmage, No Spellthief, No Shugenja, No Spirit Shaman)

Do you run the game or are you a player? When I posted that question, I was thinking along the lines of "Cleric Bard Druid Wizard Sorcerer", not all the other optional casters out there. I sincerely doubt a 4th ed core PHB will have 30 core classes in it.

Rings of Sustenance. Bags of Holding. There's already plenty of ways to get around mundane logistical challenges, and these methods aren't exactly anything new to the game. Also, I personally am not so fond of buying and tracking the food, water, and other equipment and supplies for an expedition.

Ah, but the ring takes up a valuable ring slot, a limited resource. So if no one likes tracking food and water, would it be ok if the next edition removed them from the game? Would it be the right thing to do? But otherwise, thank you for your insight regarding the Druid.

Twowolves, please read my note above VERY carefully, and edit this post accordingly.

Sorry boss, I was already typing my reply when you posted. I'll fix it.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Wait, the book has been out for a week, and you've run two campaigns with it?

No, I said we've introduced them to two campaigns, not completed two campaigns. (I'm in more than one ongoing campaign.)

That said, we've got far more than a week's worth of experience with them. I've had access to author's copies of the book for a while, and everyone in my group is under NDA as WotC playtesters, so we've been using the feats (and other stuff from the book) for a couple of months.

 

[Mouseferatu]

The general consensus of the group, BTW, is that the feats are really cool, but given the opportunity cost of using them, and the fact that each given feat requires you have spells of a specific type prepared, nobody wants to have more than one or two, at most.

(Those costs being, to keep the feats at effective levels, you cannot cast your most potent spells.)

 

[Psion]

The DnD style resource management fire and forget magic is only present in a few of the Dying Earth stories.

Zelazny's Nine Princes in Amber is also similar. Though some have argued that the later novels are inspired by D&D, I don't know enough about Zelazny to guess whether such a claim is credible. Nonetheless, so what if it is. Fantasy is an evolving body of work, and D&D has just as much entitlement to innovate there as novels do.

 

[Amazing Triangle]

Saying "don't like it, don't play it" isn't a discussion about the merits of the feats, it's a "take your ball and go home" answer.

[sblock=Comment on this]
You are correct but in the absence of a level comparison you are using a perceived discrepancy to argue that the feat is overpowered.[/sblock] Sure I can see some ways of abuse (multiple reserve feats) (granted you have to miraculously use more than one standard action a round) but the fact that any time you use the reserve feat you are doing substantially less damage, at a dangerously closer range, over a longer sustained time.

You are not talking about the merits of anything, you are arguing that you think that everyone will take this feat. What about dodge or power attack? Are those over powered cause they have no limit per day? Are they overpowered cause a lot of characters that can take them will take them?

Do you run the game or are you a player? When I posted that question, I was thinking along the lines of "Cleric Bard Druid Wizard Sorcerer", not all the other optional casters out there. I sincerely doubt a 4th ed core PHB will have 30 core classes in it.

Again with the 4th edition thing, please start a new 4th edition thread and go from there. I was thinking in the bigger scope of the current gaming environment.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

The general consensus of the group, BTW, is that the feats are really cool, but given the opportunity cost of using them, and the fact that each given feat requires you have spells of a specific type prepared, nobody wants to have more than one or two, at most.

(Those costs being, to keep the feats at effective levels, you cannot cast your most potent spells.)

It'll be interesting to see if the waterbreathing one becomes, as I imagine it will be, essentially a required spell for ocean-going campaigns, possibly including the Savage Tide. (Depending on how watery later adventures are.)